Starting problems

[Chrissie]

Beta 14 engine, I haven't been able to start it for a couple of weeks as the battery kept dipping below 12v, got all that sorted today then found that the started motor clicks rapidly when I try to start it, but doesn't start. When I tried repeatedly to start it the whole control panel went dead, so:
Dead panel = dead fuse?
Starter motor, poor connection or jammed starter or air in fuel system?

I thought I might try removing the alternator to get at the starter motor, check the connections and take a look in the starter motor, my morris minor starter motor could be opened up, can the Beta one?

Any thoughts or suggestions very welcome, as I really want a new years day sail!

 

[richcray]

I would check the negative connection in engine, the Beta engines often connect the negative on the starter, but sometimes on the aluminium bell housing. Not the best as you get voltage drops. Also check the engine fuse (blade type).
Clicking noise is probably from the solenoid in the starter, it usually happens when there is not enough power in the battery.
If none of the above, you need to get the multi-meter out and track the voltages through the system, starting with the battery terminals.

 

[earlybird]

If the battery is in reasonable condition, then there is a poor connection somewhere in the starting circuit. The clicking is the starter motor solenoid. Go through the connections, +ve and earth, making sure they are all clean and tight.
This could explain the dead panel.
The starter can be opened to give access to the commutator and brushes, but this seems unlikely to be the problem, at least until the electrical connections are checked.
I think that you can discount air in the fuel supply.

 

[sam_uk]

No expert by any means, but I had this 'clicking' starter after changing the battery.

Could be worth double checking that you have done the battery terminals up tight enough. I hadn't and got the symptoms you describe. A few turns with a spanner and all was good again.

Good luck

Sam

 

[david_bagshaw]

No expert by any means, but I had this 'clicking' starter after changing the battery.

Could be worth double checking that you have done the battery terminals up tight enough. I hadn't and got the symptoms you describe. A few turns with a spanner and all was good again.

Good luck

Sam

+1

oxide on battery terminals and where the cable connects to the clamps.

Just recently had a 1 volt drop in the first 2 inches of cable, damp had got into the swaged end where the cable went into the clamp..

use jump cables to see if that improves the situation.

check the panel connections, but definitely at the battery end, often fed from a connection on the starter motor.

on larger installations, not un known for the oxide to make the panel dead, In worse situations the battery post burns away,leaving the open circuit.

 

[Chrissie]

Thank you all, I think I might start tomorrow by undoing all the electric connections and doing them all up again tighter, then if that doesn't do it, remove the alternator to check the connections to the starter motor, do I need to try to turn the engine over whilst measuring the voltage available for the starter?

New battery and cables/terminal ends, new on/off/1/2/both switch but old master switch and connections to the starter motor,

 

[Otter]

Hi Chrissie, we had some start problems and when I traced the wiring it went from the battery to an isolator switch then back down to the starter, it made for a very long run and extra connections all of which were vulnerable to being loose or getting damp. I re-positioned the starter battery very close to the engine and connected it direct, it gets its charge from the alternator via a split charge diode box that's very cheap. The result was when we tried to start you could hear the engine spinning up so much faster. Not an immediate cure for you but it was a very simple mod that worked wonders for us. Good luck with the diagnosis.

 

[VicS]

Thank you all, I think I might start tomorrow by undoing all the electric connections and doing them all up again tighter, then if that doesn't do it, remove the alternator to check the connections to the starter motor, do I need to try to turn the engine over whilst measuring the voltage available for the starter?

New battery and cables/terminal ends, new on/off/1/2/both switch but old master switch and connections to the starter motor,

Remove, CLEAN, and remake all the main cable connections from battery to starter motor AND the negative from engine to battery.

The starter on your Beta will, I am 99% sure, not not be like the one on your Morris Minor. It will be a "pre-engage" type, in which the solenoid also engages the pinion with the ring gear. Your MM would almost certainly have had an inertia , or Bendix, type in which the rotation of the starter causes the pinion to engage with the ring gear.

Not sure I know why you need to remove the alternator to check the main battery connection to the starter motor ... just accessibility ?

Selector switch and master switch need to be checked as well if no joy with connections.

Beware of checking for power with a digital mulimeter. They take so little current that they will give a "normal" reading even through bad connections if there is no load. A bulb on a couple of leads ( esp if used in parallel with the meter) is often a better idea.

 

[PilotWolf]

Did you actually replace the battery? If not It possible it is breaking down under load. Try a different battery or if possible try to start whilst connected to a good charger.

I think the clicking is the solenoid not engaging on the starter - possibly due to low voltage...

Try the simple things before stripping down the engine!

W.

 

[Simondjuk]

Got a set of jump leads? If so, as already mentioned, first use one to make a temporary negative from the engine back to the battery and try starting. If that cures it, you have a bad connection somewhere in the negative side. If that doesn't cure it, make a connection from the large positive stud on the starter motor back to the battery and try starting. If that does it, you have an issue in the positive side.

No sense in trying to fix things that aren't broken. Diagnose first.

 

[Laundryman]

Before you start dismantling, give the solenoid a tap, not bash with a sledge hammer, just a tap. Sometimes they stick. Try it before you start spending money. Good luck. Alan

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Bypass the cables for testing purposes. Connect a spare cable from the battery negative and the body of the starter motor and connect another cable to the positive battery terminal; then just touch the other end of the positive cable to the starter feed cable.

If the starter motor does not engage and turn the engine then the problem is with the starter or the battery (assuming the engine rotates freely)

 

[Simondjuk]

Bypass the cables for testing purposes. Connect a spare cable from the battery negative and the body of the starter motor and connect another cable to the positive battery terminal; then just touch the other end of the positive cable to the starter feed cable.

If the starter motor does not engage and turn the engine then the problem is with the starter or the battery (assuming the engine rotates freely)

Assuming it's is a pre-engaged starter motor, you'd also have to put volts onto the small solenoid positive for that to work. The main positive terminal on the starter is always live anyway, it just doesn't connect anything until the solenoid is energised, which engages the pinion and closes the contacts between the main positive connection and the motor.

In fact, a really easy way to check to see if the wiring between the solenoid/panel/starter button, or either of the latter two items themselves, is dodgy is simply to jump from the main positive stud on the starter to the positive terminal on the solenoid. A screw driver that you don't mind putting arcing scars in does the job nicely.

 

[William_H]

poor cranking speed

You do not say what the fix was for the low battery volts. The battery may be cream crackered.
However the total failure of volts at the control panel after trying to start may indicate a bad connection.
Often bad connections will become very hot after trying to start the engine.
Bad battery switch or bad solenoid of course are not so obvious.
If you want to go down the volt meter testing path. Put clips on the meter leads. Measure the voltage at the solenoid post to engine ground. It should be around 12v. Try to crank the engine the voltage should be around 9v in a normally cranking engine. Very low voltage indicates a bad battery or bad connections. High volts indicates bad solenoid contacts.
Do the same test with meter connected to the battery post if possible. If the voltage drops very low when cranking or trying to crank.... ave a new battery. If the battery volts remain near 12v you have bad wiring switches. good luck and I hope you get out on the water for New Years day for a happy New Year. olewill

 

[Topcat47]

If the power cable to the starter motor from the battery or the return (usually also from the engine) have poor connectivity the starter solenoid may appear to chatter. The low power cable from the switch to the solenoid only carried enough power to activate it and close the main power switch. This part of the circuit also needs to be checked out and the fuse will be here, but the power cables to and from the starter motor have to be top notch. Clean them, make sure the terminals are good and tight and cover them with vaseline after you've replaced them.

 

[Chrissie]

Some absolutely fantastic advice from you guys. Thank you.
Its a new battery (1 month)but I am not sure its a 'good' battery, see Halfords thread, I recharged it again before fitting it yesterday.

I cannot get to the main cable terminals on the engine,(starter) ie positive from battery to starter and the negative to engine, without removing the alternator to get to them, very tight engine space.

I have a feeling the ground may not be very good so I will test engine to battery ground with a light up screwdriver first, before anything else. I will also test ignition circuit, I may have blown the fuse while trying to start it yesterday.

The only spanner size I didnt have on the boat was a 14mm to remove the alternator, so hopefully I will find a socket for that today.

Best of all I will print off the advice given here and follow it step by step,

One of the hardest things will be pressing the starter button and being close enough to the multi meter to see whats happening, I might take a long piece of stick with me for that.

 

[onesea]

I had similar problems when I bought present boat, in the end the solution was new wires from battery to engine. The difference being that an "old" battery turned the engine over and started it. did not need the brand new one .

If you really get stuck can I suggest you join SeaStart? It might cost 170 for the year but if for that price they diagnose your problem AND you have the piece of mind they are ready "free" for next 12 months?

Must admit I will not be renewing my membership BUT am prepared to pay the extra but to join now and get first call out NOW .

If I was not in home port they would be my first choice of engineers...

 

[earlybird]

.I have a feeling the ground may not be very good so I will test engine to battery ground with a light up screwdriver first, before anything else. ..

The only spanner size I didnt have on the boat was a 14mm to remove the alternator, so hopefully I will find a socket for that today.

. One of the hardest things will be pressing the starter button and being close enough to the multi meter to see whats happening, I might take a long piece of stick with me for that.

Two or three small points:-
If, by light-up screwdriver, you mean a neon mains tester, it won't work on 12volts.
I would expect your alternator hexagons to be 13mm At least, mine are, 14mm is unusual, except perhaps Yanmar.
A multi-meter isn't a lot of good for what you are trying to do. It's current draw doesn't challenge poor contacts, which is what the problem is likely to be.

 

[PhillM]

At the rist of sounding stupid.....

Going to risk making myself look stupid for suggesting this but I had a similar sounding problem.

I won’t go into the story but suffice to say that AFTER I had bought a nice new start battery, I learned that the batter switch MUST be on ONE (which in my case is the dedicated start battery) not ALL for the starter motor to turn - otherwise I just got a "Click" like you describe.

Logic would have told me that 2 batteries connected together would be better than one, but no, having the leisure battery connected at the same time seems to drop the overall voltage. Now that could mean that I need a new lesiure battery....

 

[Chrissie]

some good points there, I am using it on 1 not both as the domestic battery is too low, the cables from the battery are new, I made them up yesterday, but the connections to the engine are old, which is why I need to remove the alternator to reach them, I would go out today but its really blowing and its a long row! close enough to nip down later if the wind reduces.

I have a good range of 13 mm sockets and spanners on board, just that little bit too small for the alternator bolt/nut.

Good advice about the light up tester for neutral, I have some wire and led bulbs (12 V) would that do it?