Starter motor help please

[colhel]

I think I may have either ruined my starter motor or flattened the battery. Volvo Penta 2001 series.
NYE, I left Cobbs for the very short trip to the Boat Haven. I noticed an odd noise in the background of the usual engine noise (not immediately unfortunately), I found out that water had got into the control panel causing the switch to power up the starter motor whilst the engine was running. Now the engine turns over very very slowly, too slow to start. Also, the starter motor has a different noise, though I'm not sure if this is flat battery noise or stuffed starter noise. I've had to leave the boat at the Haven with one of the batteries on charge as although they are showing over 12 volts on my uncalibrated multimeter, the charger is indicating they are not fully charged. The online price for a starter motor is about 100 quid less than buying locally, so all I want to do is get the boat back to Cobbs where I can spend a bit of time on the engine without racking up visitor berth charges.
Can anyone make suggestions to help with the problem please?

 

[Mike k]

Hi

not sure about your starter but according to the 12v Bible for Boats - a fully charged battery reads 12.6V +, 12.4V= 75%, 12.2V= 50% and 12.0V=25% .Finally 11.7V=0%.

 

[colhel]

Hi

not sure about your starter but according to the 12v Bible for Boats - a fully charged battery reads 12.6V +, 12.4V= 75%, 12.2V= 50% and 12.0V=25% .Finally 11.7V=0%.

Thanks for that. I think my (uncallibrated) reading was about 12.3.

 

[pcatterall]

Your battery should read better than that!! more like 13 plus. that could be why it only turned slowly. The fact that the starter worked ( even slowly) suggests that you may have got away with out ruining the starter but your battery may never fully recover!!
Your comments suggest that you have 2 batteries and that they are not connected? so a starter battery and a domestic one?
Possibly if the batteries are still not good on your return to the Haven you may be able to buy a starter battery locally ( they always come in useful!!)
Good luck

 

[lw395]

I think it is hard to diagnose without knowing a) what the battery volts drop to while the starter is turning and b) what current the starter is drawing.
But letting the starter motor turn slowly for more than a few seconds will answer the question for you, by destroying the starter motor.
If the volts don't drop to say 8V while trying to crank, the motor is not drawing much.
You could try loading the battery with all the lights, does it drop below say 11.5 V for a 10 amp load?

I would suggest borrowing an adequate, fully charged battery as a starting point (sic).
Take the one out of your car?
Use jump leads?

 

[colhel]

Your battery should read better than that!! more like 13 plus. that could be why it only turned slowly. The fact that the starter worked ( even slowly) suggests that you may have got away with out ruining the starter but your battery may never fully recover!!
Your comments suggest that you have 2 batteries and that they are not connected? so a starter battery and a domestic one?
Possibly if the batteries are still not good on your return to the Haven you may be able to buy a starter battery locally ( they always come in useful!!)
Good luck

Thanks. I have 2 batteries connected via 0, 1-2, 1 and 2 switch. They are both 85ah leisure batteries bought about 8 months ago. I had to buy a charger today from halfords and thought it best to disconnect one battery completely and charge it without the risk of damaging the alternator or anything else. If I wanted to charge both batteries, how would I connect the charger and batteries?

 

[colhel]

I think it is hard to diagnose without knowing a) what the battery volts drop to while the starter is turning and b) what current the starter is drawing.
But letting the starter motor turn slowly for more than a few seconds will answer the question for you, by destroying the starter motor.
If the volts don't drop to say 8V while trying to crank, the motor is not drawing much.
You could try loading the battery with all the lights, does it drop below say 11.5 V for a 10 amp load?

I would suggest borrowing an adequate, fully charged battery as a starting point (sic).
Take the one out of your car?
Use jump leads?

Thanks. I thought the batteries were in good condition until this happened hence my concern for the starter motor but am trying the simplest thing first. I did think about taking the car battery but time, weather and an anxious SWMBO made me think otherwise. But I'll be on my own tomorrow so I can try then. But being on my own means I won't be able to hold the mutimeter and crank the engine at the same time.

 

[VicS]

The scale of voltages Mike K quotes are rested voltages. Ie after standing for at least 12 hours with no charge or discharge. ( FWIW I work to a rule of thumb that 12.7 is effectively fully charged, 11.7 is effectively discharged, ( conveniently a difference of 1.0 volts), with a linear relationship in between.)

You will observe a lower voltage immediately after drawing current, the exact value depending upon the current draw, and a higher voltage immediately after charging.

During cranking the voltage could fall to below 10volts, perhaps to 9 volts but i'd not expect it to fall as low as 8 volts.

I would charge the batteries individually ie with the isolator switch set to OFf, or at least not to BOTH. If you do want to charge both together you could do so with the isolator switch set to BOTH.

You dont say what battery charger you have bought but for an 85Ah battery with luck you have bought an automatic charger with a max output around 8 amps. Larger will do no harm but much lower will mean longer charging times.

Make some long leads for your multimeter , with croc clips on the ends ( Maplin sell "extra flexible wire" which is good for meter leads)

If the starter motor does seem to be suspect dont just buy a new one. Take the old one along to an automotive electrician to see if it can be repaired

 

[colhel]

Thanks Vic. The charger I bought is here:

Understand what you're saying about getting the starter repaired, but the marina costs could easily out weigh any savings.

Edit I tremoved the link as it didn't work. It was about 25 quid and automatic

 

[elton]

You can get the starter motor refurbished, no matter what damage it's suffered. New brushes, a rewind, new bearings, whatever. Ring around a few auto-electricians.

 

[VicS]

Thanks Vic. The charger I bought is here:

Understand what you're saying about getting the starter repaired, but the marina costs could easily out weigh any savings.

Edit I tremoved the link as it didn't work. It was about 25 quid and automatic

Halfords own "Fully automatic battery charger" I guess then . Should do the necessary for you.

 

[andy59]

I have got a 100ah battery you can have Colin as have just replaced a pair for engine starting , still showing 12.7 v . Let me know if you need it .

 

[NickRobinson]

Make sure you have the radio code before borrowing the car battery. Also the manual to reset the clock. It may run a little oddly when you first refit it until the closed loop engine management resets (older cars?) but should settle down in a mile or two.

If you have a 1-2-both switch, have you tried starting on 'house' or 'both'.

Quite likely the starter is sick... My 345 pound Yanmar starter was fixed locally to me for 21 pounds when it died on a visitors berth o the Welland.

Let us know how it goes
Nick

 

[colhel]

I have got a 100ah battery you can have Colin as have just replaced a pair for engine starting , still showing 12.7 v . Let me know if you need it .

Thanks Andy that's really kind.

 

[colhel]

Make sure you have the radio code before borrowing the car battery. Also the manual to reset the clock. It may run a little oddly when you first refit it until the closed loop engine management resets (older cars?) but should settle down in a mile or two.

If you have a 1-2-both switch, have you tried starting on 'house' or 'both'.

Quite likely the starter is sick... My 345 pound Yanmar starter was fixed locally to me for 21 pounds when it died on a visitors berth o the Welland.

Let us know how it goes
Nick

Thanks. The clock works by magic and I have the radio code.

 

[chewi]

acw electrics on leigh road wimborne will refurb it.

No connection etc, they've done my bukh starter and alternator.

 

[William_H]

OP has assumed that the starter stayed engaged cranking because of moisture behind the control panel. Unless he is sure, of that it is unlikely. What can happen is that the starter pinion remains engaged in the ring gear of the engine because of corrosion on the sliding spline. Because of the high gear ratio engine to starter, if this happens the starter will be spun at high speed. Starters tend to have plain bush bearings so the noise may have been the starter destroying itself. I think Op should remove the starter. it will become pretty obvious I think about the condition of the starter. if the bearings are cream crackered then it is likely the armature is hitting the field coil pole peices. New bearings may be a cheap fix. But of course most important is to fix the corrosion in the spline.
I think the slow cranking very likely a sign of damaged starter bearings or commutator.
Incidentally if the fault was caused by electrical short leaving the starter cranking, the current of the starter would be almost zero due to engine driving the starter very fast (it could have turned into a generator) The solenoid if it is the type where the solenoid pushes the pinion into the ring gear and switches power to the starter would have held the starter engaged. Of course the alternator should have been pumping into the battery or at least minimising losses through the starter. So batteries may be fine. good luck olewill

PS one kind of light piston aircraft coincidentally originating in IOW. (Britten Norman Islander) was modified to fit "starter engaged warning light due to this problem of starter remaining engaged. needed to shut engine down immediately.

 

[VicS]

OP has assumed that the starter stayed engaged cranking because of moisture behind the control panel. Unless he is sure, of that it is unlikely. What can happen is that the starter pinion remains engaged in the ring gear of the engine because of corrosion on the sliding spline. Because of the high gear ratio engine to starter, if this happens the starter will be spun at high speed. Starters tend to have plain bush bearings so the noise may have been the starter destroying itself. I think Op should remove the starter. it will become pretty obvious I think about the condition of the starter. if the bearings are cream crackered then it is likely the armature is hitting the field coil pole peices. New bearings may be a cheap fix. But of course most important is to fix the corrosion in the spline.
I think the slow cranking very likely a sign of damaged starter bearings or commutator.
Incidentally if the fault was caused by electrical short leaving the starter cranking, the current of the starter would be almost zero due to engine driving the starter very fast (it could have turned into a generator) The solenoid if it is the type where the solenoid pushes the pinion into the ring gear and switches power to the starter would have held the starter engaged. Of course the alternator should have been pumping into the battery or at least minimising losses through the starter. So batteries may be fine. good luck olewill

PS one kind of light piston aircraft coincidentally originating in IOW. (Britten Norman Islander) was modified to fit "starter engaged warning light due to this problem of starter remaining engaged. needed to shut engine down immediately.

Pre-engaged starter motors do I think have some form of directional clutch in the pinion gear assembly. If that is so it should have prevented the motor being spun at damaging seed by the engine.

Even so inspection of the motor and in particular the pinion gear assembly would be advisable. Also worth looking at the flywheel ring gear for possible damage

 

[colhel]

PS one kind of light piston aircraft coincidentally originating in IOW. (Britten Norman Islander) was modified to fit "starter engaged warning light due to this problem of starter remaining engaged. needed to shut engine down immediately.

My Wife used to live opposite Norman Britten in Bembridge. She used to walk Lady Brittens' dog.

OP has assumed that the starter stayed engaged cranking because of moisture behind the control panel. Unless he is sure, of that it is unlikely. .

It may be unlikely as you say but the only way I could stop the engine was by swithing off the batteries, this is how I first found out what the noise was. I tried stopping the engine, this model has a mechanical stop, but it kept on turning over and the de-compression lever didn't stop it.
Hopefully with charged batteries I'll be able to movce the boat to her home berth and take off the starter.

Thanks Chewi for the local contact.

Thanks all.I'll let you know how I get on.

Col

 

[pcatterall]

I think you said that you had 2 85AH leisure batteries on you 1-2-both system. If you do need new batteries don't forget that one should be suitable for starting, preferably not a leisure type.
Good luck