Standing rigging alterations advice

[ProDave]

I don't know much about standing rigging, so that's why I'm asking here.

The standing rigging on my boat is just as it was when we bought her. It all seems in good condition with no cause for concern in that respect.

It's a masthead rig. There are two shrouds from the top of the mast, via spreaders, to deck fixings in line with the mast foot.

There are also two further shrouds from the mast directly below the spreaders, straight down to deck fixings but these are about 18" aft of the mast. See first picture.

My "problem" is the two aft shrouds are not really tight, even with the bottlescrews fully tightened.

Now, I don't think they are stretched. Instead, I think the "problem" is a modification somebody has done to the forestay.

See second picture. You will see a short extension piece between the forestay bottlescrew and the bow fixing.

The mast is clearly raked a few degrees aft. The mast foot mounting can clearly go a few degrees forward if it needs to.

My question is why was this added? Is there a real benefit from having the mast raked back a few degrees?

If I remove the extension piece and just have the forestay bottlescrew fixed directly to the bow fixing, that will bring the mast forward a few degrees and give that missing tension to the lower shrouds.

Should I do this, or should I leave it alone?

 

[prv]

That forestay looks very odd indeed. I seem to remember you originally had the mast down - did you ever see it up in the previous ownership? My first suspicion is that that short wire is not an extension to the forestay, but something else (perhaps a tack strop for the jib?) that was hooked into the bottlescrew when derigged to keep it from getting lost.

Pete

 

[Kelpie]

It's possible that, as currently set up, the boat may have too much rake. This would lead to weather helm- have you noticed this whilst sailing? Bringing the mast more upright would reduce this. Normally masts are pretty close to perpendicular.

The other thing that comes to mind is that whilst sailing, you may induce enough mast bend via the kicker/sheet to pull the aft/lower shrouds tighter...
On my Vega these particular shrouds are supposed to be set up slacker that the others, presumably to allow/encourage mast bend- but in that case there are matching forward lower shrouds that are tightened up to help with the bend. A babystay would do a similar job.

Sorry if the above isn't very helpful...

 

[ProDave]

That forestay looks very odd indeed. I seem to remember you originally had the mast down - did you ever see it up in the previous ownership? My first suspicion is that that short wire is not an extension to the forestay, but something else (perhaps a tack strop for the jib?) that was hooked into the bottlescrew when derigged to keep it from getting lost.

Pete

That's a very good point indeed.

Yes I bought the boat on the trailer and never saw her with the mast up. The first time I saw her with the mast up, was when I put it up.

As I got her, this short extension piece was shackled to the bottom of the forestay bottlescrew, so I just assumed that's where it should be and that's how I kept it.

So are you suggesting I go and take it off and attach the forestay bottlescrew direct to the deck fixing?

 

[prv]

So are you suggesting I go and take it off and attach the forestay bottlescrew direct to the deck fixing?

Yes. Perhaps a shackle or similar interspersed if the bottlescrew won't go neatly onto the fitting, but certainly lose the wire strop.

As I said, my guess is that the strop is designed to go from one of the other holes in the fitting, up to the tack of the jib.

Pete

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

But, it does look quite long.... removing it would bring the mast head forward a good amount, so i'd proceed with real caution!

(not saying the above posts are wrong, just that its a helluva length to be removing from the forestay!)

 

[ProDave]

Yes. Perhaps a shackle or similar interspersed if the bottlescrew won't go neatly onto the fitting, but certainly lose the wire strop.

As I said, my guess is that the strop is designed to go from one of the other holes in the fitting, up to the tack of the jib.

Pete

Right, I've just been out and removed the wire strop. I used a shackle to fix the bottom of the bottlescrew to the fitting, mainly to make it easier for when we want to detach the forestay to lower the mast.

The mast is just a little firther forward now, and now I can get good tension on the two rear shrouds, still with some adjustment on the bottlescrews, so it looks a lot better.

The mast foot still hasn't bottomed out, and the mast could still go forward a little more if necessary.

The only thing that still makes me think the last owner sailed with this extension strap in place, is I had to let out the backstay tension further than it has been for a long time. It's a pulley block system on this boat to adjust the backstay tension and I had to untie and move the knot in the end of the line (to prevent you losing the line) which suggests it was last used with this strap on the forestay (otherwise the backstay wouldn't reach)

I guess this is the "joys" of buying a boat from a broker, who frankly knows nothing about the boat, and having no contact with the previous owner who no doubt could have told me how he had it set up and why.

 

[ProDave]

It's possible that, as currently set up, the boat may have too much rake. This would lead to weather helm- have you noticed this whilst sailing? Bringing the mast more upright would reduce this. Normally masts are pretty close to perpendicular.

I'm new to sailing and we have only sailed her 3 times at the end of last season as complete beginners, so I wouldn't recognise weather helm if it hit me in the face with a wet fish.

I do know we tried beating up wind in a choppy sea back the the harbour and gave up and put the motor on, but that's almost certainly our inexperience.

 

[prv]

But, it does look quite long.... removing it would bring the mast head forward a good amount, so i'd proceed with real caution!

(not saying the above posts are wrong, just that its a helluva length to be removing from the forestay!)

I thought the same at first, but notice that as well as the aft shrouds being done up all the way (and still slack) the forestay screw is also done up all the way. Back off both sets of screws most of the way and you've probably made up most of the length of the strop, the remainder being the tension that is missing in the aft shrouds (and maybe a toggle or shackle at the forestay).

At the end of the day this is only a dinghy-sized rig (18' boat if I remember rightly?) so the potential for dangerous mayhem while experimenting on land is fairly small.

Pete

 

[ProDave]

But, it does look quite long.... removing it would bring the mast head forward a good amount, so i'd proceed with real caution!

(not saying the above posts are wrong, just that its a helluva length to be removing from the forestay!)

See above posts, I've removed it now and looks okay (with notes about the backsyay)

The extension I have removed was about 9 inches long. But I've added a shackle, so that's probably another inch, and let out the forestay bottlescrew by about 3" (was prevously fully tightened to try and get tension on the rear shrouds) so the net effect was probably shortening the forestay by about 5 inches.

Yes I proceeded with caution. I used the jib halyard as an "emergency forestay" in case in my adjustments I let go of the forestay completely, so I knew the mast wasn't going to come crashing down.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Dave,
a possible guide to whether the forestay is the correct length (in the absence of a design drawing or measurements), would be whether you can set the headsail correctly, without it fouling the mast at the head and coming down fairly close to the deck at the tack, while putting enough tension on the luff that the hanks just act to restrain the sail when coming up or down. The luff of the sail should be straight without any sign of sagging between the hanks when set. If you can set your headsail with a taught luff on the 'shorter' forestay it's probably about right.

Sailing to windward is the proper test and you may find it helpful to have someone more experienced than yourself help you assess that. I wouldn't expect a boat like that to go particularly well to windward in a chop, even with optimum trim and skilled helming. It's a small, light boat with a very modest sailplan so finding oneself pretty well stopped by adverse sea would not be a surprise.

Weather helm simply refers to the amount (angle) of rudder needed to counter the boat's tendency to turn into the wind. Raking the mast aft will tend to increase weather helm, reducing the rake as you have done, the opposite. A bit of weather helm is desirable in any sailing boat.
Cheers

 

[ProDave]

Dave,
a possible guide to whether the forestay is the correct length (in the absence of a design drawing or measurements), would be whether you can set the headsail correctly, without it fouling the mast at the head and coming down fairly close to the deck at the tack, while putting enough tension on the luff that the hanks just act to restrain the sail when coming up or down. The luff of the sail should be straight without any sign of sagging between the hanks when set. If you can set your headsail with a taught luff on the 'shorter' forestay it's probably about right.

Sailing to windward is the proper test and you may find it helpful to have someone more experienced than yourself help you assess that. I wouldn't expect a boat like that to go particularly well to windward in a chop, even with optimum trim and skilled helming. It's a small, light boat with a very modest sailplan so finding oneself pretty well stopped by adverse sea would not be a surprise.

Weather helm simply refers to the amount (angle) of rudder needed to counter the boat's tendency to turn into the wind. Raking the mast aft will tend to increase weather helm, reducing the rake as you have done, the opposite. A bit of weather helm is desirable in any sailing boat.
Cheers

Thanks again.

Last time the headsail was up, it seemed to stop a long way from the top of the mast, almost to the point I thought perhaps the headsail was a little too small for this boat. So I'm sure now with the shortened forestay that's not going to be an issue.

Thanks for the explanation of weather helm, I'll see how it behaves when we re launch in April.

Yes we are going to get some instruction on our own boat from some of the instructors at the club which will hopefully improve our ability, and they will hopefully also be able to give good advice on how the boat handles and what if anything we can sensibly do to improve it if there are any issue.

 

[Signed Out]

And that strop may still prove useful- when you do raise the foresail, there may still be plenty of room at the top. Some people like to use a strop at the tack to raise the foot off the deck to clear fittings/pulpit. The strop in that case would go to one of the other holes on the stem fitting. This will increase heeling moment, but minimally.

 

[ProDave]

And that strop may still prove useful- when you do raise the foresail, there may still be plenty of room at the top. Some people like to use a strop at the tack to raise the foot off the deck to clear fittings/pulpit. The strop in that case would go to one of the other holes on the stem fitting. This will increase heeling moment, but minimally.

Very true.

When we sailed her last year, we shackled the foresail tack to the top of the forestay bottlescrew to keep it above the pulpit.

But now I've installed a roller furling system for the foresail, and already incorporated into that a spacer to keep it above the pulpit.