St Helier

[Bathdave]

What a number of the posters in this thread seem to have overlooked/forgotten/not realised, is that when this matter was apparently resolved a few months ago, Hibbs was not exonerated.

The findings of the independent review was that he had on a number of occasions breached the code of conduct to such an extent that dismissal was appropriate. However the review concluded, and the RNLI accepted that the correct disciplinary process had not been followed, and his dismissal was therefore unfair...and as part of a negotiated compromise, he was reinstated and required to re-sign the code of conduct.


The back story of broken down relationships between boat and port authorities (and as one poster has already pointed out, coastguard is a department in a new commercial enterprise run by the government), allegations of unauthorised launches and tows to help a mate, an ousted former member of the crew trying to settle scores, is relevant but not the crucial point.

The reinstatement was obviously a last chance to play by the rules, and clearly the RNLI wanted to keep a close handle on him, and he appears to,have decided he didn't want to play by their rules

 

[Daydream believer]

What a number of the posters in this thread seem to have overlooked/forgotten/not realised, is that when this matter was apparently resolved a few months ago, Hibbs was not exonerated.

The findings of the independent review was that he had on a number of occasions breached the code of conduct to such an extent that dismissal was appropriate. However the review concluded, and the RNLI accepted that the correct disciplinary process had not been followed, and his dismissal was therefore unfair...and as part of a negotiated compromise, he was reinstated and required to re-sign the code of conduct.


The back story of broken down relationships between boat and port authorities (and as one poster has already pointed out, coastguard is a department in a new commercial enterprise run by the government), allegations of unauthorised launches and tows to help a mate, an ousted former member of the crew trying to settle scores, is relevant but not the crucial point.

The reinstatement was obviously a last chance to play by the rules, and clearly the RNLI wanted to keep a close handle on him, and he appears to,have decided he didn't want to play by their rules

That summary of events puts the RNLI in a different light. I suspect that in the final analysis the RNLI has acted properly in the matter in the end & it is indeed Hibbs, being a loose cannon, that really needs firing for the good of the rescue services on the island.. Imagine another voluntary service being led by the same individual, running it in the same way, but with more authority to do as he pleases. Not a good scenario is it.

 

[Jonas]

Once the loose cannon is fired, you'll need to find a man of the same calibre.
I thank you.

 

[Mark-1]

What a number of the posters in this thread seem to have overlooked/forgotten/not realised, is that when this matter was apparently resolved a few months ago, Hibbs was not exonerated.
The findings of the independent review was that he had on a number of occasions breached the code of conduct to such an extent that dismissal was appropriate. However the review concluded, and the RNLI accepted that the correct disciplinary process had not been followed, and his dismissal was therefore unfair...and as part of a negotiated compromise, he was reinstated and required to re-sign the code of conduct.

He was, of course, exonerated of everything to to with launching the lifeboat. He just wasn't cleared of sending the e-mails. (Not contradicting you, just spelling it out!)

The back story of broken down relationships between boat and port authorities (and as one poster has already pointed out, coastguard is a department in a new commercial enterprise run by the government), allegations of unauthorised launches and tows to help a mate, an ousted former member of the crew trying to settle scores, is relevant but not the crucial point.

Agree, and we really know very little of the detail of any of that. Some of the allegations are clearly untrue, the CG can't order a lifeboat to go anywhere, let alone a needlessly dangerous situation. Can the CG order a lifeboat to drop a tow? I very much doubt it. What they probably can do is launch their tug without ever calling the lifeboat. Maybe that's the problem. If it is I'm not sure how you deal with that, or even if you can. It would be interesting to find an authoritive explanation of exactly what Port Authority/CG policy is that the crew don't like. If it's all about "stealing their shouts" I really don't know how the RNLI is supposed to resolve that situation. Give all the local boaters a direct number for the RNLI launch authority? Not sure that's a good idea.

If the CG choose who gets the shouts, and the CG have a boat, then they are going to give themselves plenty of shouts and the expense of the other would-be rescuers.

In the unlikley event that my conjecture is right then an independent run by local fishermen where the local fishermen/sailors have a direct line to the launch authority which bypasses the CG is a very good idea, and probably quite in keeping with the roots of the RNLI.

The reinstatement was obviously a last chance to play by the rules, and clearly the RNLI wanted to keep a close handle on him, and he appears to,have decided he didn't want to play by their rules

Feels that way to me. Maybe he's right and they're all wrong, but even if that's the case, he's still the one that has to go. Of course, as an independent he's still going to have to work with CG and Port Authority.

 

[Daydream believer]

Once the loose cannon is fired, you'll need to find a man of the same calibre.
I thank you.

Hibbs is not " someone special" he is just someone who has been trained up to be lifeboat cox. With him out of the way ( which I have said before has been the problem) there will be another more than willing to step up. Possibly from the same crew.
People go on about the bravery & skills of RNLI crews & I agree it takes a certain person to get on the boat in horrendous seas & risk ones life to go to sea.

Addressing the skill factor first- that is dealt with by selection & then training by the RNLI. They do actually have some experience of that. As for bravery, even the most wimpish bloke on earth will suddenly perform the bravest of feat.
Witness the war ( an extreme example I know where people were forced to act rather than volunteer) My father in law was the mildest bloke you could imagine but been torpedoed twice & saved others. He was decorated for his actions. There are countless similar stories
People will always put their life on the line to help others if the need arises.
A replacement could be found.

 

[Mark-1]

Hibbs is not " someone special" he is just someone who has been trained up to be lifeboat cox.

I think you've gone too far here. Andy Hibbs is a fisherman, his whole working life is boat handling; retreiving stuff from the water in all conditions. Directly transferable skills. There's no way training part-time will make a weekend warrior assistant manager in Spec Savers as good.

I've seen an RNLI training excersise first hand. You could spot the (depressingly few) professional seaman a mile off and the guys who didn't have a boating background weren't even as capable as average weekend sailors like us.

Andy Hibbs clearly can't work within the system on Jersey but, since the local fishermen are unlikley to volunteer, he certainly won't be replaced with an equal.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I think you've gone too far here. Andy Hibbs is a fisherman, his whole working life is boat handling; retreiving stuff from the water in all conditions. Directly transferable skills. There's no way training part-time will make a weekend warrior assistant manager in Spec Savers as good.

I've seen an RNLI training excersise first hand. You could spot the (depressingly few) professional seaman a mile off and the guys who didn't have a boating background weren't even as capable as average weekend sailors like us.

Andy Hibbs clearly can't work within the system on Jersey but, since the local fishermen are unlikley to volunteer, he certainly won't be replaced with an equal.

Very good wise comments kind Sir

Difficulty on these Yachty forums is that some (maybe most) readers are indeed RYA exam types and understand and believe that obtaining a RYA qualification is the 'bees knees' of Boating experience, so as you refer to a Spec Saver or Manager Accountant types can be REAL seamen after passing these RYA exams, cause they got the Piece of Paper awarded them.

This is in no way a satisfactory awareness course for REAL seamen and I hope, Life-boatmen.

One has only to read up on the postings about Safety on Crossing Oceans races where Safety appear to be less that is possible and required, but posts like oh well he was trained because he passed a RYA Ocean exam last year on a course, and it lasted 3 weeks; well bully for you, if it was any good at all he would need to have sailed that route probably every month to keep his 'hands and eye in' to be a real Sailor of statute.

Suggest that any Lifesaving system really wants the best available for the Job and Task, and that means, for serious Lifesaving offshore and in very rough seas recruitment needs to be from already experienced Sailors and Fishermen who experience the rough conditions and difficult sea states at least weekly over a number of years, not a RYA or RNLI fella with a cert of competence, surely ?

 

[Daydream believer]

Suggest that any Lifesaving system really wants the best available for the Job and Task, and that means, for serious Lifesaving offshore and in very rough seas recruitment needs to be from already experienced Sailors and Fishermen who experience the rough conditions and difficult sea states at least weekly over a number of years, not a RYA or RNLI fella with a cert of competence, surely ?

I was not suggesting - apologies if it looked that way- that one can take a chap from behind a desk & make him an experienced seaman in 5 minutes. I did state in my text " select" & that means that one with a base experience to start with. There are additional skills that are needed i am sure & that is where the RNLI will have to be there to develop. My point was that 1 man is not the only man & believe it or not there is always another able & willing to step up to a challenge given the encouragement.
Hibbs , like his father, may be brilliant, he may be average. The forum is assuming he is a super hero, but is there any proof? Most Cox get the job because they are the best available at the time & I am sure that Hibbs was. But he can be replaced.

 

[Daydream believer]

Very good wise comments kind Sir

Difficulty on these Yachty forums is that some (maybe most) readers are indeed RYA exam types and understand and believe that obtaining a RYA qualification is the 'bees knees' of Boating experience, so as you refer to a Spec Saver or Manager Accountant types can be REAL seamen after passing these RYA exams, cause they got the Piece of Paper awarded them.

This is in no way a satisfactory awareness course for REAL seamen and I hope, Life-boatmen.

One has only to read up on the postings about Safety on Crossing Oceans races where Safety appear to be less that is possible and required, but posts like oh well he was trained because he passed a RYA Ocean exam last year on a course, and it lasted 3 weeks; well bully for you, if it was any good at all he would need to have sailed that route probably every month to keep his 'hands and eye in' to be a real Sailor of statute.

Suggest that any Lifesaving system really wants the best available for the Job and Task, and that means, for serious Lifesaving offshore and in very rough seas recruitment needs to be from already experienced Sailors and Fishermen who experience the rough conditions and difficult sea states at least weekly over a number of years, not a RYA or RNLI fella with a cert of competence, surely ?

I think one needs to reconsider forumite's perception of a modern day fisherman. He is no longer the bearded old salt that you might think he is.
last year I met a middle aged assistant harbour master who was leaving his job & his next job was - training young people to become fishing boat skippers.
He was going to get them through their various exams & give them sea time to obtain the certificates that you so despise.. You only have to look at the way the fishing industry has changed to realise that the bearded old salts from years ago will not exist & the new bread of fisherman will be a different animal altogether. Working in his heated cabin with his computer to calculate the size of the shoal & to determine what part has the biggest fish & where to lay his nets to the greatest effect. It is not science fiction- it is already happening.
So where else will we go for our RNLI cox. Windfarm skippers- They get the jobs because they have qualifications to become skippers, not because they can bait hooks better than the next bloke.

So now to break a taboo--- How hard is it to helm a lifeboat? Actually give me a few months training & I reckon I could p..s it, as could a lot on this forum, if they had a " can do " attitude. Modern lifeboats are really well designed for the job & should not be "pigs" to handle.
All you need is an aptitude to :-
1) Mould the crew into a unit who believe in you- That is the hard bit
2) An understanding of the local conditions- You get that by going out on training exercises & if you have been a local sailor or have been associated with the area & water in some way. I went for a ride on a life boat where the cox came from the south east, was not a fisherman, & was cox on the boat 300 miles further north. Not much chance of local knowledge there!
3) Ability to make quick sensible decisions & act on them
4) Able to handle the craft
5) Full understanding of all the processes in operating the craft & safety procedures taught by the RNLI
6) Willing to spend the time week after week attending the RNLI unit with the team even though there may not be a shout.
7) Be able & willing to act at a moments notice & have the guts to go to sea & put one's life on the line for others. - You do not need to be a fisherman for that, there are lots behind a desk who would stand up & do their " duty" if push came to shove
8) Some more that I have not thought of yet

Finally it would be interesting to know how often a lifeboat does actually go out in stormy conditions & if they are bad, what the rules are on launching. I would imagine that whilst lives are regularly saved, most such situations are in sub f8 conditions & the hard bit is possibly tricky maneuvers in & out of rocks etc where inshore boats often get used. Or up to ships in conditions where pilot boats are active every day. At what level do helicopters take over & are lifeboats still relevant in such conditions these days?- just a question !!

 

[dogleg]

Very good wise comments kind Sir

Difficulty on these Yachty forums is that some (maybe most) readers are indeed RYA exam types and understand and believe that obtaining a RYA qualification is the 'bees knees' of Boating experience, so as you refer to a Spec Saver or Manager Accountant types can be REAL seamen after passing these RYA exams, cause they got the Piece of Paper awarded them.

This is in no way a satisfactory awareness course for REAL seamen and I hope, Life-boatmen.

One has only to read up on the postings about Safety on Crossing Oceans races where Safety appear to be less that is possible and required, but posts like oh well he was trained because he passed a RYA Ocean exam last year on a course, and it lasted 3 weeks; well bully for you, if it was any good at all he would need to have sailed that route probably every month to keep his 'hands and eye in' to be a real Sailor of statute.

Suggest that any Lifesaving system really wants the best available for the Job and Task, and that means, for serious Lifesaving offshore and in very rough seas recruitment needs to be from already experienced Sailors and Fishermen who experience the rough conditions and difficult sea states at least weekly over a number of years, not a RYA or RNLI fella with a cert of competence, surely ?

there is a new RNLI training programme much of it not related to the lifesaving side for example dealing with children, distressed people etc brought about by I suspect by the current climate and legal advice

 

[Daydream believer]

there is a new RNLI training programme much of it not related to the lifesaving side for example dealing with children, distressed people etc brought about by I suspect by the current climate and legal advice

Or the current demands placed by the type of rescue that the service now finds itself engaged in.

 

[Mark-1]

Actually give me a few months training & I reckon I could p..s it, as could a lot on this forum

Maybe you could, assuming you are naturally 100pc immune to seasickness, which few weekend sailors truely are.

However, I still contend that no matter how capable you were after a few months training you would still be better if you were out picking up and dropping pots all day every day; exploring the local waters to the nth degree; instinctively picking up the tricks of local tides. ....and you get total resistance to sea sickness for free purely by habituation without needing any natural resistance.

 

[dogleg]

Maybe you could, assuming you are naturally 100pc immune to seasickness, which few weekend sailors truely are.

However, I still contend that no matter how capable you were after a few months training you would still be better if you were out picking up and dropping pots all day every day; exploring the local waters to the nth degree; instinctively picking up the tricks of local tides. ....and you get total resistance to sea sickness for free purely by habituation without needing any natural resistance.

you are of course right but the experienced seaman fisherman type is now a rarity in many parts of the coast, many volunteers come with little or no nautical knowledge but may have other skills, mechanical , electrical, paramedic etc, the training is uniform throughout the RNLI in order I suppose to ensure fairness instead of years ago when buying the coxswain a drink every Saturday night might make a favourable impression


one training scenario apparently now involves how to assist a distressed female in the sea who probably has mental problems so as to avoid later charges of inappropriate behaviour, not something I have ever had to worry about

it is not usually a few months training can take 12 months + each graduated step being externally assessed, will deal with search patterns, radar, electronics ,fire fighting, first aid casualty care, breeches buoy, anchoring veering down, boat handling mooring, going alongside, helicopter cooperation etc and knowing where every bit of gear is and how to us it, some not found on a yacht

my son a chief officer on one of the largest container ships afloat is perfectly happen to have his various sections re validated after a lengthy period away, on the other hand father would have not been chuffed

 

[Daydream believer]

Maybe you could, assuming you are naturally 100pc immune to seasickness, which few weekend sailors truely are.

However, I still contend that no matter how capable you were after a few months training you would still be better if you were out picking up and dropping pots all day every day; exploring the local waters to the nth degree; instinctively picking up the tricks of local tides. ....and you get total resistance to sea sickness for free purely by habituation without needing any natural resistance.

So a bloke from the south east who moves up north (not a fisherman in the area) to become harbour master could not possibly be any use as Cox then !!!!
Funny really because almost as soon as he moved there he was virtually told " You are going to be our cox". Like it or not, he said he could hardly refuse. But then refusing never crossed his mind

 

[Mark-1]

So a bloke from the south east who moves up north (not a fisherman in the area) to become harbour master could not possibly be any use as Cox then !!!!

Not really sure how that follows from what I wrote.

 

[fisherman]

As I said earlier the RNLI is of necessity a very different animal from forty years ago, when a boat was supplied and left to a bunch of fishermen and other seamen to man as thought fit. I went for a drink one saturday in 1975 and told the cox he was going to be called out for a missing sailing dinghy. I had seen it pass me about 7pm and catch the ebb off the lizard. I called the CG when I got in, he said they were aware and had sent a small fv from round the corner. Way out of order, but sure enough I ended up driving the cox and a few others to the station at 10.30. Most of the regular crew were on an away day, so four of us were pulled in, me as able to identify the casualty for what it's worth. Not the first time I was asked to fill a place, although not on the crew. There had been drink taken. the radar was turned on before the radar scanner was raised so did half a turn and blew the fuse. The Fastnet was coming up through so many echoes were investigated, got them at about 1 am. Imagine that being allowed to happen these days. It was a fourteen foot sailing dinghy with totally inexperienced people aboard and no equipment, they could have come to grief in collision or weather and tide, just off the Lizard, and how would that have looked? Not only HSE, but fear of possible litigation has made the RNLI much more professional in its management and manning, I believe a lot more coxns and mechanics are on the payroll, so subject to the responsibilities between employee/employer, which have also changed over the years.
Edit:
The cox and second cox from that crew would not even be considered nowadays, although consummate fine seamen of their time. Whether that is a good thing I would have to be convinced. I remember when the Falmouth lifeboat knocked a prop on the Manacles: Toby West wouldn't have done that.

 

[Mark-1]

As I said earlier the RNLI is of necessity a very different animal from forty years ago, when a boat was supplied and left to a bunch of fishermen and other seamen to man as thought fit. I went for a drink one saturday in 1975 and told the cox he was going to be called out for a missing sailing dinghy. I had seen it pass me about 7pm and catch the ebb off the lizard. I called the CG when I got in, he said they were aware and had sent a small fv from round the corner. Way out of order, but sure enough I ended up driving the cox and a few others to the station at 10.30. Most of the regular crew were on an away day, so four of us were pulled in, me as able to identify the casualty for what it's worth. Not the first time I was asked to fill a place, although not on the crew. There had been drink taken. the radar was turned on before the radar scanner was raised so did half a turn and blew the fuse. The Fastnet was coming up through so many echoes were investigated, got them at about 1 am. Imagine that being allowed to happen these days. It was a fourteen foot sailing dinghy with totally inexperienced people aboard and no equipment, they could have come to grief in collision or weather and tide, just off the Lizard, and how would that have looked? Not only HSE, but fear of possible litigation has made the RNLI much more professional in its management and manning, I believe a lot more coxns and mechanics are on the payroll, so subject to the responsibilities between employee/employer, which have also changed over the years.

Yup, no quarrel with any of that. The RNLI have got things about right over the issues discussed in this thread. AH had to go.

None the less, post 345 is way overstating the case IMHO.

 

[Daydream believer]

Not really sure how that follows from what I wrote.

May I refer you to your words:-
"if you were out picking up and dropping pots all day every day; exploring the local waters to the nth degree; instinctively picking up the tricks of local tides. ."..
I take that to suggest that you feel that lifeboatmen should come from the fishing fraternity. Although I do concede you qualified with the word " Better"
I do not think that that actually follows bearing in mind how the RNLI is having to adapt to current trends & needs of the community

 

[guernseyman]

Maybe you could, assuming you are naturally 100pc immune to seasickness, which few weekend sailors truely are.

100% immunity is not needed. Most people are OK afterwards. Only some may be long-term incapacitated.

 

[Mark-1]

100% immunity is not needed. Most people are OK afterwards. Only some may be long-term incapacitated.

I can't say you've convinced me, but I can't find anything online that indicates an RNLI policy on seasickness for crew members or any mention of it as an issue.