St Helier

[Daydream believer]

Humm guess that you were a Management Man in you working life, suggest that operations like that of the RNLI are much more Bottom Up services where the real skills and abilities are where the Volunteer Men Women are not where the Directors and Middle Men or even the Coastguard and Harbour Master are. They are quite ancillary to the Life Saving operation they support the Volunteers, or should so do.
If the RNLI hierarchy went to night what would the result be ?

They would not have the skills & abilities without the management to make that training possible. They would not have the large funding raised without the management. They would be disorganised, or at least disconnected as an organisation without the management to mould the whole organisation into one.
Of course you need the volunteers but you do not need people to make little martyrs of themselves & not follow the general scheme of things.
I say it again. Regardless of whether he was right or wrong( i cannot judge) Hibbs is now the problem, fix that & whole thing will die down & get back to normal

As to what I did - Own business . So yes management & I certainly did not let employees tell me how to run my business

 

[Mark-1]

Many of the 65 in the UK are over 50 years old, and doing very well, thank you.

Seem to be thriving round my way, too.

When I was coordinating SAR, if a lifeboat coxswain told me the port of destination I'd suggested (not demanded) was not the best, I'd have followed their call every time - after all, they have the liability. For any coastguard to do the opposite is foolish in the extreme.

If that's what happened - seems completely implausible to me. Be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

 

[superheat6k]

So who owns the lifeboat the RNLI have removed ? Not just legal title, but moral title.

It was apparently paid for out of funds largely raised locally in Jersey to provide Jersey its all weather Lifeboat, which presently the RNLI is simply not doing.

In my view the RNLI are the vessel and its facility's custodians, but not the moral owners. As such they should surely be obliged to actively support whatever the local view is as far as a long term solution is concerned. This could mean them formally returning the vessel and handing over the keys to the lifeboat station.

I was also amazed rot find out the RNLI seemingly regard the independent lifeboats as competition, and not brothers in arms. They certainly provide none of their enormous facilities to the benefit of the independents.

The problem I am having is giving up a lifetime's support for the RNLI, but I am seriously concerned this is not the organisation it once was.

 

[chanelyacht]

They would not have the skills & abilities without the management to make that training possible. They would not have the large funding raised without the management. They would be disorganised, or at least disconnected as an organisation without the management to mould the whole organisation into one.

You're assuming all the above are (a) needed, and (b) provided by Poole.

Having worked with both RNLI boats and indies, the indies training is just as good (it has to be, to achieve MCA asset declaration), there is no need for vast layers of management, and every £1 raised gets spent on what the donor intended - not pension schemes, cars, new offices, pensions, etc.

The training centre, for example, is fantastic facility - but, it is widely kept quiet that the running costs plus the travel costs from volunteers is actually more expensive than the old system of regional trainers delivering locally.

The RNLI has sadly become a big business monolith, and the fact you think Andy Hibbs the "problem, right or wrong" is amazing. You cannot blindly assume management is always right - especially not in this case.

Talk to the lads at New Quay or New Brighton if you want to know how RNLI management really works.

 

[dogleg]

You're assuming all the above are (a) needed, and (b) provided by Poole.

Having worked with both RNLI boats and indies, the indies training is just as good (it has to be, to achieve MCA asset declaration), there is no need for vast layers of management, and every £1 raised gets spent on what the donor intended - not pension schemes, cars, new offices, pensions, etc.

The training centre, for example, is fantastic facility - but, it is widely kept quiet that the running costs plus the travel costs from volunteers is actually more expensive than the old system of regional trainers delivering locally.

The RNLI has sadly become a big business monolith, and the fact you think Andy Hibbs the "problem, right or wrong" is amazing. You cannot blindly assume management is always right - especially not in this case.

Talk to the lads at New Quay or New Brighton if you want to know how RNLI management really works.

there are still regional trainers and assessors delivery locally, we have one this week, New Quay (Wales) are of course upset at losing their Mersey for an 85 by coast review , a decision which does look illogical given the distance between Barmouth and Fishguard, but you could talk to Scarborough, Girvan, Llandudno and Bridlington about their new boathouses and Shannons and you will get a totally different reaction, it has always been so I suspect since the coming of motor lifeboats 100+ years ago.

As for Mr Hibbs there was fault on both sides or are you suggesting that he was blameless? This issue germination most probably through political decisions of the Jersey government.

 

[Daydream believer]

The RNLI has sadly become a big business monolith, and the fact you think Andy Hibbs the "problem, right or wrong" is amazing. You cannot blindly assume management is always right - especially not in this case.
.

I am not saying management is always right. Note I said " right or wrong". What is more important now? The RNLI or Andy Hibbs?
He is the problem now isn't he? If he was persuaded to give up his crusade, leave the RNLI & the idea of alternative rescue services altogether , walk away, & persuade his crew return to normality with the RNLI there would be a fair chance that in a reasonable amount of time & with some good PR all would start working again.

I think that if I was the senior exec at the RNLI I would consider this an important enough situation where I would probably go & have a one to one talk with the bloke myself; just the 2 of us, & see if there was a solution. Even if it meant a couple of meetings to get to understand him & get the bitterness out of him first.

 

[dogleg]

there are still regional trainers and assessors delivery locally, we have one this week, New Quay (Wales) are of course upset at losing their Mersey for an 85 by coast review , a decision which does look illogical given the distance between Barmouth and Fishguard, but you could talk to Scarborough, Girvan, Llandudno and Bridlington about their new boathouses and Shannons and you will get a totally different reaction, it has always been so I suspect since the coming of motor lifeboats 100+ years ago.

As for Mr Hibbs there was fault on both sides or are you suggesting that he was blameless? This issue germinated most probably through political decisions of the Jersey government.

corrected

 

[Sybarite]

You're assuming all the above are (a) needed, and (b) provided by Poole.

Having worked with both RNLI boats and indies, the indies training is just as good (it has to be, to achieve MCA asset declaration), there is no need for vast layers of management, and every £1 raised gets spent on what the donor intended - not pension schemes, cars, new offices, pensions, etc.

The training centre, for example, is fantastic facility - but, it is widely kept quiet that the running costs plus the travel costs from volunteers is actually more expensive than the old system of regional trainers delivering locally.

The RNLI has sadly become a big business monolith, and the fact you think Andy Hibbs the "problem, right or wrong" is amazing. You cannot blindly assume management is always right - especially not in this case.

Talk to the lads at New Quay or New Brighton if you want to know how RNLI management really works.

You wouldn't happen to be agreeing with me....???

I need to sit.

 

[chanelyacht]

You wouldn't happen to be agreeing with me....???

I need to sit.

I think you'll find we've often disagreed about boats, but usually agree about Poole.

 

[chanelyacht]

I am not saying management is always right. Note I said " right or wrong". What is more important now? The RNLI or Andy Hibbs?
He is the problem now isn't he? If he was persuaded to give up his crusade, leave the RNLI & the idea of alternative rescue services altogether , walk away, & persuade his crew return to normality with the RNLI there would be a fair chance that in a reasonable amount of time & with some good PR all would start working again.

I think that if I was the senior exec at the RNLI I would consider this an important enough situation where I would probably go & have a one to one talk with the bloke myself; just the 2 of us, & see if there was a solution. Even if it meant a couple of meetings to get to understand him & get the bitterness out of him first.

Neither the RNLI or Andy Hibbs are the most important - people in need of search and rescue at sea are the most important.

Poole ignored that when a boat was taken away which the crew had agreed to operate in accordance with the rules (as happened at St Abbs), derelicting their duty to provide a SAR service. The consequence of this was demonstrated the next day.

As for the RNLI getting rid of Andy Hibbs, that just shows bullies win. What should have been done is an independent review, maybe led by a non Exec, of what happened, and then action taken accordingly.

Yes, the new boats and boathouses are great, but events have shown Poole to have been wrong at Poole, Calshot, St Abbs, and now New Quay. The Atlantics a good boats, but not appropriate for casualty care or long term crew safety (which is why we've bought a 9m cabin rib, faster than an Atlantic, with better casualty protection, for half the cost).

Plus, of course, if you give an independent service £1, that gets spent on boat or kit. Not company cars.

 

[mainsail1]

I have just read the Solent Rescue website for the first time. It is one of your independent outfits which you think are just fine. The problem is that if I get into trouble on the wrong day or the wrong time of year you are not available. Comparing this to the RNLI is like comparing apples with oranges.

 

[chanelyacht]

I have just read the Solent Rescue website for the first time. It is one of your independent outfits which you think are just fine. The problem is that if I get into trouble on the wrong day or the wrong time of year you are not available. Comparing this to the RNLI is like comparing apples with oranges.

Solent is one of the very few time dependent indie stations - in the Solent alone, full time, on pager, exactly the same as the RNLI, are Freshwater, Ryde, Sandown & Shanklin, Gosport, and, with some restrictions, Hamble.

The vast majority of the 65 stations and 150+ boats are fulltime pager call, operating in areas where the RNLI provided no cover at all.

 

[Mark-1]

Solent is one of the very few time dependent indie stations - in the Solent alone, full time, on pager, exactly the same as the RNLI, are Freshwater, Ryde, Sandown & Shanklin, Gosport, and, with some restrictions, Hamble.

The vast majority of the 65 stations and 150+ boats are fulltime pager call, operating in areas where the RNLI provided no cover at all.

...and then there's Hayling Island Rescue who will most likely be sleeping under a tarp on his RIB. Not sure how you achieve a faster attendance time than that.

Regarding the current spat on Jersey, I think the RNLI had little choice but to take the boat. If the current crew started running the RNLI station and boat on independent terms the RNLI would have needed to resort to legal measures to get the boat back which would have been far more damaging than what's already happened and would have gone on for months.

The crew might be 'right' in all of this but it's clear they can't work amicably with Harbour Authority, CG or the RNLI. Given that, they made the right decision to go Independent, the status quo wasn't working.

 

[chanelyacht]

...and then there's Hayling Island Rescue who will most likely be sleeping under a tarp on his RIB. Not sure how you achieve a faster attendance time than that.

Regarding the current spat on Jersey, I think the RNLI had little choice but to take the boat. If the current crew started running the RNLI station and boat on independent terms the RNLI would have needed to resort to legal measures to get the boat back which would have been far more damaging than what's already happened and would have gone on for months.

The crew might be 'right' in all of this but it's clear they can't work amicably with Harbour Authority, CG or the RNLI. Given that, they made the right decision to go Independent, the status quo wasn't working.

Frank is an absolute legend.

The Jersey crew had agreed to run to all RNLI rules until such a time as the new boat arrived, then they would resign.

The problem is the situation was created by a coxswain, with the full backing of his sea, shore and fundraising crew, refusing to hand a vessel which was safely in tow, to a money making vessel owned by the State who would have then charged the casualty. The RNLI crew did what they are there to do - bring people to safety for no cost.

Sadly, Poole then took the side of the person ordering the handover, for reasons unknown.

To see people on here saying those who followed the RNLI's centuries long ethos, should be the ones to be sacked, is disturbing to put it mildly.

 

[Mark-1]

Frank is an absolute legend.

Top guy, for anyone who doesn't know of him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOlqiY919-Y

The Jersey crew had agreed to run to all RNLI rules until such a time as the new boat arrived, then they would resign.

If it were my decision I wouldn't take that chance, leaving the boat could have really backfired. Maybe I'd be wrong, we'll never know.

The problem is the situation was created by a coxswain, with the full backing of his sea, shore and fundraising crew, refusing to hand a vessel which was safely in tow, to a money making vessel owned by the State who would have then charged the casualty. The RNLI crew did what they are there to do - bring people to safety for no cost.
Sadly, Poole then took the side of the person ordering the handover, for reasons unknown.

Did they take the side of the person ordering the handover? Andy Hibbs' says he was cleared by the RNLI and that the accusation was regarding an unauthorised launch:

https://m.facebook.com/JerseyAction...4179202469/1475713072535913/?type=3&source=48

To see people on here saying those who followed the RNLI's centuries long ethos, should be the ones to be sacked, is disturbing to put it mildly.

As a professional fisherman Hibb's is exactly the sort of seaman I'd want on a lifeboat, but if he can't work with the RNLI, the Port Authority or the local Coastguard then he's a non-starter as an RNLI volunteer AFAIC. Maybe they're the ones who have the wrong ethos, but losing one unpaid volunteer is a far more practical solution than getting rid of several paid employees who need to dismissed via a formal process - and might not have done anything that allows their legal dismissal.

 

[Poecheng]

What principles are in evidence here?
Get rid of the one good, important chap (and a volunteer to boot) because the others are difficult to dismiss ?

He seems to have been ok for at least 20 years so he is not a non-starter as an RNLI Volunteer anymore than is his mum who fundraises endlessly.

It may be practical to get rid of Hibbs - and this seems to be some peoples only consideration - but it is not principled.

When you are in the carp, the Coastguard coordinates but doesnt get wet, neither does the Port Authority or anyone from Poole HQ. When you need help you need Hibbs and his type - someone you have never met but who will apply their principles in the real world, time after time, and will battle through anything to get to you to save you. Salt of the earth who won't let you down - not someone who decides that keeping his slippers on and having another cup of tea is the 'practical' thing for him to do rather than going on a shout.

I cannot see he has asked for anything other than justice and it is a pretty shoddy response to carp on him from the comfort of our armchairs and it stands in sharp contrast to what he would do for us when we needed help.

 

[Capt Popeye]

What principles are in evidence here?
Get rid of the one good, important chap (and a volunteer to boot) because the others are difficult to dismiss ?

He seems to have been ok for at least 20 years so he is not a non-starter as an RNLI Volunteer anymore than is his mum who fundraises endlessly.

It may be practical to get rid of Hibbs - and this seems to be some peoples only consideration - but it is not principled.

When you are in the carp, the Coastguard coordinates but doesnt get wet, neither does the Port Authority or anyone from Poole HQ. When you need help you need Hibbs and his type - someone you have never met but who will apply their principles in the real world, time after time, and will battle through anything to get to you to save you. Salt of the earth who won't let you down - not someone who decides that keeping his slippers on and having another cup of tea is the 'practical' thing for him to do rather than going on a shout.

I cannot see he has asked for anything other than justice and it is a pretty shoddy response to carp on him from the comfort of our armchairs and it stands in sharp contrast to what he would do for us when we needed help.

Humm thank you Poecheng for your considered comments, might I say, all appear to be from the standpoint of Justice and not Managerial convenience.

My recollection is that it was the then Harbour Master who complained directly to the RNLI Head Man, and both of them were Officers in the Navy who knew each other, might not be so but that is my recollection as reported earlier.

Might appear to a bystander that the Head of the RNLI appears or appeared to condone the Right of Salvage to be claimed by the Harbour or Council over the safety of a recovered vessel .

 

[dogleg]

Humm thank you Poecheng for your considered comments, might I say, all appear to be from the standpoint of Justice and not Managerial convenience.

My recollection is that it was the then Harbour Master who complained directly to the RNLI Head Man, and both of them were Officers in the Navy who knew each other, might not be so but that is my recollection as reported earlier.

Might appear to a bystander that the Head of the RNLI appears or appeared to condone the Right of Salvage to be claimed by the Harbour or Council over the safety of a recovered vessel .

the RNLI CEO was kept out of the discussion for that very reason. or so we were told. I t was handled by heads of community lifesaving reporting to chairman of trustees


it is worth exploring the Bailwick Express for some interesting reports

 

[Mark-1]

it is worth exploring the Bailwick Express for some interesting reports

Yup. Too many facts spoil the wrath. We actually know quite a lot about what happened now, including Andy Hibbs' version of events.

 

[chanelyacht]

I see the RNLI are now receiving funds via television for something called the "Turkey Dash".

I assume it's based on seeing how quickly you can get senior management from Poole to Jersey.