St Alban's ledge advice please

Tom Price said:
I have NEVER been there by mistake - and nowadays pass through faster than 6 knots! It is our right to hold our course at top speed while the squaddies up on the cliff stop firing and enjoy a ciggie.
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So your view is just sail on through and they can all wait til you are safe the other side?
I admit while skirting on the outside I do wonder how come there are sailing boats drifting on through, but perhaps they follow your approach.
I am not conversant with the actual bylaws, but you imply they dont oblige a vessel to keep clear.
I note " valuable training time can be lost when vessels stray into the range;delays are and frustrating and expensive..."

Not to you though?
 
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gjgm said:
So your view is just sail on through and they can all wait til you are safe the other side?
I admit while skirting on the outside I do wonder how come there are sailing boats drifting on through, but perhaps they follow your approach.
I am not conversant with the actual bylaws, but you imply they dont oblige a vessel to keep clear.
I note " valuable training time can be lost when vessels stray into the range;delays are and frustrating and expensive..."

Not to you though?
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Well, has anybody ever heard of boats being shelled in these firing ranges or been prosecuted for not exiting them as directed? I haven't so I guess Tom Price is in theory correct but, as you say, its totally thoughtless and inconsiderate to disrupt valuable gunnery training time. Lets hope one day that Tom Price's life or the life of a close relative is not dependent on a gunner who missed a few hours' essential training thanks to Tom Price's boat meandering through the ranges
 
Deleted User said:
Well, has anybody ever heard of boats being shelled in these firing ranges or been prosecuted for not exiting them as directed? I haven't so I guess Tom Price is in theory correct but, as you say, its totally thoughtless and inconsiderate to disrupt valuable gunnery training time. Lets hope one day that Tom Price's life or the life of a close relative is not dependent on a gunner who missed a few hours' essential training thanks to Tom Price's boat meandering through the ranges
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Actually a couple of summers ago I was passing on the outer markers when some warship was manoevering about a mile or so away. He seemed a bit shocked when I called him up on VHF to check I wasnt about to be blasted out of the water. Maybe I shouldnt have watched the Cruel Sea the night before ;)
 
stop or go?

"I guess Tom Price is in theory correct but, as you say, its totally thoughtless and inconsiderate to disrupt valuable gunnery training time."

Des Sleightholme campaigned for years to establish this as a right - who am I to disagree?
 
A massive thanks for all the replies so far...I'm well impressed, even by the slightly off topic range bits. Thanks again. Sound useful advice and a spot of amusement too .
 
pull2g said:
A massive thanks for all the replies so far...I'm well impressed, even by the slightly off topic range bits. Thanks again. Sound useful advice and a spot of amusement too .
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Nowadays I always keep well off as it ocurred to me I would be stuffed if the prop was fouled whilst close in (spitting distance)
 
We've also got an S28 and made the trip a few times now. Here's a pic of what it was like going round at Easter. We normally stay really close in but it was very docile round the head that week on the way out and back a few days later

stalbans.jpg



Anyway, the headlands before give a good enough indication on the way too - you'll know by the time you get to Durelston Head whether you want to carry onto St Albans or not. And as Strakeryrius says it's well worth a stop in Lulworth Cove, one of our favourites for a spot of lunch and a lazy afternoon
 
Forgive the double post but I originally entered it in another thread discussing the virtues of ignoring harbourmaster's instructions. When someone suggested ignoring the range patrol I thought they were joking. It seems not :)


"Harbour wombles" refers to the Portsmouth voluntary harbour patrol discussed in the previous thread.



Are you suggesting there are people afloat who would ignore the requests of the range patrol to move out of the way of a tank fired projectile ?

The harbour wombles' blue flashing light whilst attention grabbing is unlikely to physically harm you or your boat unless I suppose you suffered from strobe induced epileptic fits, stood really close and stared right into it.

Lulworth is home to the Royal Armoured Corps gunnery school and I think the clue is in that last word, school. It rather implies the teaching of potentially less than accurate young men and women in the correct firing procedures for the Challenger II tank. It's worth pointing out that of the 3 Challenger II tanks thus far destroyed one was sent to it's final resting place via "friendly" fire from another Challenger II tank.

I am not expert in these matters but as I understand it a Challenger II weighs in at a tad over 60 tonnes depending on what the crew had for breakfast and much of that weight is given over to providing the vehicle with what's know as Dorchester level 2 armour protection. I can't find reference in my otherwise most extensive Princess owner's manual to the vessel's armour protection level. Basic mathematical calculations however would seem to suggest that it falls somewhat short of Dorchester level 2. The full parameters of Dorchester level 2 are classified but whilst the hitting of a Challenger II tank with a lump hammer would do little more than alert the occupants to your presence it would put a hole, or at very best a nasty crack in my Princess. Thus I am assuming the tank to be better protected and yet still one was destroyed in the carnivorous attack mentioned previously.

I hope you can now see why ignoring the request of the range patrol boat may not prove to be one of your finest hours, although it could easily be your final hour.

Womble with a blue flashing light. Challenger tank with a learner driver, finger poised over the firing button of an L30 120mm projectile weapon on very bumpy ground.

You decide.

Keep smiling



Henry :)
 
henryf said:
Forgive the double post but I originally entered it in another thread discussing the virtues of ignoring harbourmaster's instructions. When someone suggested ignoring the range patrol I thought they were joking. It seems not :)


"Harbour wombles" refers to the Portsmouth voluntary harbour patrol discussed in the previous thread.



Are you suggesting there are people afloat who would ignore the requests of the range patrol to move out of the way of a tank fired projectile ?

The harbour wombles' blue flashing light whilst attention grabbing is unlikely to physically harm you or your boat unless I suppose you suffered from strobe induced epileptic fits, stood really close and stared right into it.

Lulworth is home to the Royal Armoured Corps gunnery school and I think the clue is in that last word, school. It rather implies the teaching of potentially less than accurate young men and women in the correct firing procedures for the Challenger II tank. It's worth pointing out that of the 3 Challenger II tanks thus far destroyed one was sent to it's final resting place via "friendly" fire from another Challenger II tank.

I am not expert in these matters but as I understand it a Challenger II weighs in at a tad over 60 tonnes depending on what the crew had for breakfast and much of that weight is given over to providing the vehicle with what's know as Dorchester level 2 armour protection. I can't find reference in my otherwise most extensive Princess owner's manual to the vessel's armour protection level. Basic mathematical calculations however would seem to suggest that it falls somewhat short of Dorchester level 2. The full parameters of Dorchester level 2 are classified but whilst the hitting of a Challenger II tank with a lump hammer would do little more than alert the occupants to your presence it would put a hole, or at very best a nasty crack in my Princess. Thus I am assuming the tank to be better protected and yet still one was destroyed in the carnivorous attack mentioned previously.

I hope you can now see why ignoring the request of the range patrol boat may not prove to be one of your finest hours, although it could easily be your final hour.

Womble with a blue flashing light. Challenger tank with a learner driver, finger poised over the firing button of an L30 120mm projectile weapon on very bumpy ground.

You decide.

Keep smiling



Henry :)
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genius, one of the best posts i have read on here yet!!
 
Lulworth Gunnery Ranges

Henry, having supported your posts I can hardly complain that am hoist by my own petard, BUT . . .
like so much of the conflict on these pages, the premise is wrong IMHO. Or as the Irishman replied when asked for directions "If I were you I wouldn't start from here."

Patrol vessels operate when firing is in progress and will ASK you to keep clear. But if you proceed through the area as quickly as possible they contact the shore and firing stops - it's as simple as that! Listen on VHF Ch 08 if you need reassurance.

For a yottie the detour out to sea can mean missing the tide at Hurst or Portland, possibly a bridge opening in Weymouth. No wonder we stick to our guns (sorry!). This strategy is clearly publicised in all the pilot books - read and learn.

To return to the OP, also laid out in pilot guides (Tom Cunliffe's Channel Pilot for one, there are others) is detailed info about St Albans Head, with pics; when it can be rough, the width of the inshore passage and the favourable back eddy which exists there, which hasn't even been mentioned here.

Why waste time sorting through the conflicting 'advice' of forumites and ignore that resource ???
 
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Tom Price said:
Henry, having supported your posts I can hardly complain that am hoist by my own petard, BUT . . .
like so much of the conflict on these pages, the premise is wrong IMHO. Or as the Irishman replied when asked for directions "If I were you I wouldn't start from here."

Patrol vessels operate when firing is in progress and will ASK you to keep clear. But if you proceed through the area as quickly as possible they contact the shore and firing stops - it's as simple as that! Listen on VHF Ch 08 if you need reassurance.

For a yottie the detour out to sea can mean missing the tide at Hurst or Portland, possibly a bridge opening in Weymouth. No wonder we stick to our guns (sorry!). This strategy is clearly publicised in all the pilot books - read and learn.

To return to the OP, also laid out in pilot guides (Tom Cunliffe's Channel Pilot for one, there are others) is detailed info about St Albans Head, with pics; when it can be rough, the width of the inshore passage and the favourable back eddy which exists there, which hasn't even been mentioned here.

Why waste time sorting through the conflicting 'advice' of forumites and ignore that resource ???
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I was advised by the previous RYA legal guy (a barrister), that you should broadcast on VHF16, that "I am exercising my right to innocent passage".

The range boat has no legal authority to ask you to sail a different route, but it might be advisable, particularly in a sail boat, to go outside the yellow buoy when heading west - rather than get embayed & run into the ledges.
 
Well with regard to St Albans Ledge (SAL); in 2008 I moved my Targa 34 from Brighton to Torquay, it was end of February, I refuelled at Cowes and made my way through the Needles towards SAL. I plotted a course outside, but my fellow crew member, an experienced YM, said we should be OK to move in a bit. It was already quite choppy and when we approached, you could clearly see the overfalls. We throttled back to displacement, it was very bumpy indeed for a couple cable or so, we slammed several times!

Lesson learned: should have kept to the skippers plan!

We then approached the range, we contacted them the day before and were assured they were not firing at the time we intended to cross, so we came in a bit, only to be called up on the radio and told that we were close to the target boat and they were firing today! All very polite, we explained that we were en route to Torquay and travelling at 26 knots, we would clear the range shortly, they thanked us and that was it!

Lesson learned: good to check before hand but always keep a listen out on the radio, be polite and state your plan and everyone can get on with their day. Why risk upsetting them? I suppose they could always impose a permanent restricted zone and we don't want that do we!

Arrived in TQ around 4pm, radio marina and given berth number, F3 with gusts, set it up really nicely approaching berth, great big broom floating across our bow, had to wait, run astern and come in again. Found berth, boat in it, radio marina and given another, 360 and off again. Still we managed to get on the new berth without incident!

Lesson learned: Should have picked up the broom and delivered it back to its owner from behind! Left it to the Dockmaster to collect!

SAL: Can be difficult from time to time but fun after the event, as long as you have a good crew and reliable boat! If choppy and you're not confident, come in close or avoid as others have said. And if you're inexperienced, don't take SWMBO!
 
On a recent cruise our table guest at dinner was a great old boy and his partner from Portland who used to skipper the range patrol boat many years ago.

I can't help but think he would have had an answer for obstinate skippers who insisted on holding course which ultimately would have left them wishing they had turned left (or right if coming from Weymouth) as requested.

I wonder if it might be an idea for Lulworth to let faster vessels through (possibly set a minimum speed of say 23 knots) and make slower boats that go backwards on the tide trundle round the outside, I mean it's not as though they are in a particular hurry is it?

I for one will continue to pop round the outside when requested although it is a hell of a detour when you only wanted to get to Lulworth cove for the night. Maybe next time I'll ask nicely and see if they will let me nip in quickly while they have a pee break.

As ever keep smiling and keep tugging away on those mainsheets whilst not forgetting to align the kettle fore and aft to avoid spillage as you sail close to the wind :)

Henry
 
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