SSB Power Consumption

Spot on as usual John

Really there seems to me little point in DSC on Hf radio - at least not for distress working.

Of course when considering cost we have a problem you don't - the CE mark. Take that nonsense out of the equation and I think costs in Europe would be much less than they are now.

My thoughts are that for "leisure" use, use an amateur set and for distress use an EPIRB.

Together they will cost less than a new CE marked SSB.
 
I agree with your comments regarding spurii (although why that matters so much at sea away from other spectrum users close by I'm not sure), and to an extent I also agree with the simplicity of operation. I am not advocating non technical people fit ham gear, although in mitigation of this...most modern ham sets have a single button "home memory setting" which could be set to 2182...my FT847 certainly has. Set this up...paint it red and Bobs your uncle..single button emergency setting.
What annoys me is that they will take a board from from a standard commercial/amateur product ...add another Pi Tank circuit and additional stage screening to comply with the emissions spec...change the PROM for the memories and features and add a different case. and a DSC module, probably out of a VHF set..and then charge three or four times the price.....doesnt add up really does it...
But it always hapens this way....before the advent of satellite comms, the British Government were big purchasers of HF radio gear from major manufacturers...so called "commercial grade" HF sets. The only difference between those sets and their Amateur equivalents, it that they came already "snipped", they had xtal ovens and they had an additional filtering..plus an additional data/audio socket to connect encryption equipment..apart from the price that is...which was about three times as much for a "commercial product"...
But Hey if they can get away with it...theyre in business after all...and there are always the gullible ones out there who think they're getting a good deal that will pay it.
I'm not knocking the quality of equipment...certainly with Icom you'll get a good solid reliable product, but in this day and age it really beggars belief that they have to charge approaching £2000 for it.

I agree with you totally regarding efficiency on MF.
Because we are tied to this 2182kHz historically from a time when ships could easily sling a useful long wire between their masts or use a "sauasage" array, making the whole thing more efficient.
Maybe it's time for the IMO to look at changing the international distress freq to something more suitable...perhaps in the 8Mhz band..or even a bit higher.
Yes I know there are nominated distress freqs here too..but they are band specific for fishing vessels and similar..not one single adopted freq internationally.

Steve
 
Hi Steve

Just on your last comment on distress frequencies, do you not have the international distress and safety traffic frequencies of 4125, 6215, 8291, 12290, etc kHz available to you in Europe?

In the case of a DSC alert, the M802 claims to transmit the alert on all 6 DSC frequencies (2187.5, 4207.5, 6312, etc) or on any selected one - although I have not tried it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Perhaps the price thing is a mainly a local issue on which I could not comment.

Regards

John
 
Steve

Some very interesting points there.

IMHO I would never recomend a non ham uses ham kit for marine use.
Ham kit can and is complex to drive.
There are far more features, buttons and dials on most ham kit than your average marine user would ever need or use.
This alone will and could make them shy away from using the radio.

With regard to your comments on radio construction, oh if only life that were that simple!
The DSC stage is deff not from a VHF, different class.
It is not just CE marking but also approval that has to be met, with ham you don't.
Aslo the DSC on SSB does TX the message on a number of freq's not just the one.

If you compare the construction of say the M801 and say the new 7000 it is so very very different.
Oh and the 7000 is £1049.95 so hardly 3/4 times the price.
The black box, which is the radio, of the M801 is built like a brick out house.
It is even totally different from the construction of the US M802 to met EU reg's.
Whilst we may not agree with all the red tape and rules we have to build the kit to meet them.

The governements of many countries, inc UK, still buy good numbers of HF kit, trust me /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards
 
Yes John they are available, but I think...only Lyngby listens to them all, so no guarantee of being heard...certainly the English, Welsh and Irish stations, those few that have HF left only listen on 2182. It may be that the Scottish stations Portpatrick, Aberdeen and Stornoway...have different arrangments for what is left of the deep sea fishing fleet, but I guess that most of that is now on satphone.
RAF Kinloss has the ability to use all these frequencies but whether it continuously monitors any of them apart from aviation distress freqs is unknown.
Maybe someone could enlighten us.

Jon Brooks has just corrected me on the price so perhaps I had been misinformed.


Steve.
 
Hi Jon...yes I thought that might tease you out...
I looked for you at LIBS but couldnt find you...that would have been Lunchtime on the first Saturday.
You may have guessed that I used to be in that sort of game in the Early eighties, when Icom HF gear was very common in all sorts of places around the world.
You suprise me that it is still in very common usage these days..but I dont keep in touch much with the old firm now. The similarities then beween those and amateur sets were extrememly noticable.
I stand corrected on the price...if that is the RRP I suppose it's not that unreasonable, which makes it only about £350 more than an IC706 or whatever the modern equiv of that is.
Is it still useable as an all bander for amateur use as well (without getting into the legal aspects) or have they reworked the "snipping" arrangements??

I agree with you that using a ham set as an emergency for non-technical types is
probably not a good idea....but in the hands of an amateur or comms pro I dont really see the problem... if the memories particularly the home frequency, and working freqs are programmed what is the problem...leaving aside the legalities which weve already worked over on here many times.
I think we all know that it's a crazy proposition for a ham to have two SSB sets on board..which as the rules stand at the moment is required. I wonder how many actually do have two?
What is your opinion of still having 2182 as the main emergency MF freq in the UK?

Kind Regards

Steve.
 
Hi Steve

I am not too sure of the GMDSS setup in Europe but my understanding is that Lyngby maintains the safety watch for Western European waters including UK - that on all the distress/safety frequencies and HF/MF DSC (but is possible that they have already changed to DSC only - maybe someone knows- really knows I mean, not just talking porkies /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). The distance is not a problem and is much less than here.

For example, the two stations maintaining the safety watch in Australia are located hundreds of miles inland and cover all of the Sea Area that Australia is responsible for, extending from mid Tasman Sea across out into the Indian Ocean. The station in NZ (that is the transmitter and antennas, the operators are in Wellington) is located near Taupo in the middle of North Island so also not on the coast - it provides coverage for the whole of the sea area that NZ is responsible for. That extends from the middle of the Tasman Sea, across NZ to around halfway to South America and for North/South direction to the equator and to antarctic.

It has been like that here for probably 20-25 years now since they closed all the various coast stations as being unnecessary. I recall that when the coast stations were all closing there was a hell of an upcry from people who did not understanf HF, especially when the new station to maintain the safety watch was not even on the coast /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, but it all turned out just fine and no one thinks anything of it any more. The station will maintain a safety watch on yachts sailing up into the Pacific from here, listening out for them each day, and I frequently hear them volunteer to do so for yachts which have contacted them for other reasons.

So, UK to Lyngby is really only a short hop in HF terms. For example, from Taupo Maritime Radio to the bottom of South Island is around the same distance (in fact probably more) as from Newcastle to Lyngby and we think nothing of that.

What is also available here is that periodically the Notices to Mariners contain coverage maps giving recommended frequencies for contacting Taupo Maritime Radio for times during the day and night according to the current season and long term propagation predictions. I think Australia does the same in some way and would not be surprised if the other stations around the world maintaining the official watches do not do the same.

John
 
John,

Yes Lyngby is the European monitoring station....and Falmouth is the UK HF/MF coordination centre...but I think itself only listens on 2182.
I dont know exactly what the linking arrangements are...whether Falmouth has any sort of remote internet or satellite access to Lyngby's transmitters...
Dont know whether this is all DSC only or not..my gut reaction is not...but dont know for sure.
From my home waters Bristol Channel and Irish Sea, I would only be confident of putting in a reasonable signal to Lyngby on 6 or 8Mhz, anything higher would probably be in the dead zone and 80m probably not guaranteed although with favourable condx entirely possible at night. Very unlikely on 2182 in the day although again could be vaguely possible at night. I'm basing this on the performance of amateur bands in europe, but of course allowing for the fact that boat antenna systems are nowhere near as efficient as a cut dipole at home.

I realise that the distances are nowhere near as great as yours but conversely there is probably a lot more QRM here.
It worries me a little that there is only a single monitoring station for frequencies other than 2182 especially as Lyngby is quite far north and more susceptible to aurora. It may be that the UK rescue coordination centre at RAF Kinloss also monitors them..but I dont know for sure..and it's certainly not documented in Reed's to my knowledge.
However maybe it is time to change from MF to HF as the standard distress freq, and 8Mhz would appear to be a good all rounder for short and middle distance working, and more importantly much better for the standard yacht backstay and vertical whips. I suppose in your neck of the woods 16Mhz would probably be more favourable given the distances. What is the "standard" distress freq in Oceania...is that 2182 as well?


We must arrange an early morning (here) sked one of these days.

Cheers

Steve.
 
Jon, I am a little confused (happens a lot these days) with prices and model No's

The 7000 at £1049....is this the new HF Mobile in essence a replacement for the IC706??

So the new CE marked IC801/ what price is that....£2000?.does that include the ATU as well?..what would be the complete price of the standard installation??


Steve.
 
What is the "standard" distress freq in Oceania...is that 2182 as well?

There is no "standard" - for example, all the international telephony distress frequencies are monitored by Taupo Maritime Radio up to 16MHz. Those are, of course, 2182, 4125, 6215, 8291, 12290, 16240kHz - my understanding is that the international allocation is that all are for distress, safety and calling except 8291 which is internationally allocated for distress and safety only ie no calling.

The Radio Handbook for Coastal Vessels here states that telephony distress calls should be made on CH16 or any of those MF/HF frequencies. It makes no special case for 2182 whatsoever for SSB and I thought that was the case worldwide (with many official stations not even maintaining watches on 2182 eg Oz, and USCG too I think). The same handbook refers people to the propagation forecasts in the Notices to Mariners that I mentioned before.

Taupo Maritime Radio also monitors all the HF DSC frequencies between 4Mhz and 16MHz (contrary, I think, to my earlier post where I think I said they also monitor 2MHz DSC as well - so have I have learnt something /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

Australia maintains an official watch on only the HF DSC frequencies, excluding 2MHz (so no ssb telephony watch, and there is no official VHF watch of any type in Oz, although the states may and private stations do maintain watches).

Not sure about Chile current situation which takes over from mid between us and them, nor current Fiji, but which maintains watches certainly on all (most) of the HF distress frequencies.

I think you and I, based on 80m amateur experience, would not waste time calling on anything less than 4125MHz ever. While I occasionally hear UK amateurs on 80m from the boat, even working around NZ/Oz on 80m (is slightly lower in freq than 4125 for any non amateurs reading, so propagation is similar) is usually hard work from the boat and feasible mainly at night. I work 160m amateur (for non amateurs, that is just below 2182, so similar and is feasible only at night) from the boat occasionally, but would never contemplate using 2182 for maritime for either of calling or distress. Yet a number of times I have seen forumites state that they made unanswered calls on 2182, and then criticising the unsurprising result that they got no response (either cos no one listening or the severe limits of propagation) .

John
 
Steve

Sorry for the delay have been out and about.

Sorry i missed you at the show, i was there every day so am guessing I was either at a pits stop or getting lunch.
Lunch breaks!!!! I wish!

The TX of the DSC on SSB is one after another, not all at the same time.
We are clever but not that clever /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The IC-7000 is the replacement for the IC-706.
The prices I quoted were SRP.
As with all the street price will be lower.
The ATU, as with the Ham radio, is an extra cost of appox £400.

As far as instal cost this is really down to the vessel and what is required, as we don't so install I can't give you a figure on this

Hope I covered all the points.

Regards

Jon
 
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