chrism
New Member
Can I use the iron keel on my boat as a ground for ssb instead of those expensive coper plates? Failing that why can't I just dangle a copper braid over the side .....yours in blissful electrical ignorance Chris
SSB Ground
- Thread starter chrism
- Start date
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
Copied from a site about SSB:
"No Pain, No Gain. Think Metal Surface Area. The RF ground installation is different for every boat but the basics are the same. You want to attach all big metal items on the boat together with copper strap and end up with a minimum of 100 square feet of metal surface area. Starting with the Automatic Antenna Tuner, the tuner should be mounted close to the feed point for the antenna which means it is usually mounted aft. From the tuner, copper strap will run forward and attach to the engine, any (and hopefully all) metal tanks and a keel bolt (any one will do). Getting the copper to metal toerails and the stern pushpit along with the lifelines can be of tremendous benefit. When incorporating the pushpit and lifelines, extra care must be taken with the route of the antenna feed wire."
To put that in another context, the best ground is to have a steel boat. Next best is to run copper bow to stern along the bottom of every bilge attached to any metal along the way. Do that in both hulls of a cat and the signal is awesome.
Copper braid over the side won't work - it's all about surface area.
"No Pain, No Gain. Think Metal Surface Area. The RF ground installation is different for every boat but the basics are the same. You want to attach all big metal items on the boat together with copper strap and end up with a minimum of 100 square feet of metal surface area. Starting with the Automatic Antenna Tuner, the tuner should be mounted close to the feed point for the antenna which means it is usually mounted aft. From the tuner, copper strap will run forward and attach to the engine, any (and hopefully all) metal tanks and a keel bolt (any one will do). Getting the copper to metal toerails and the stern pushpit along with the lifelines can be of tremendous benefit. When incorporating the pushpit and lifelines, extra care must be taken with the route of the antenna feed wire."
To put that in another context, the best ground is to have a steel boat. Next best is to run copper bow to stern along the bottom of every bilge attached to any metal along the way. Do that in both hulls of a cat and the signal is awesome.
Copper braid over the side won't work - it's all about surface area.
Eeyore
Well-Known Member
Following recent investigations (and fitting of SSB ground plate), most 'experts' are of the opinion that the SSB should be grounded alone. All the other fittings should be linked together and grounded to a sacrificial anode......but other 'experts' tell you not to link all metal fittings as this can speed up the galvanic corrosion of bronze skin fittings, SS prop shafts etc.
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
I agree with almost all KellysEye says. I think the message is that for most boats an expensive grounding plate will add little or nothing except perhaps simplicity of installation.
But I have a dynaplate on mine! Because it is a wooden boat with almost no metal permanently immersed; in fact 2 seacocks is it. I could run copper up and down the bilges and I know that would be at least as good as the dynaplate, but it is practically very difficult to arrange.
But I have a dynaplate on mine! Because it is a wooden boat with almost no metal permanently immersed; in fact 2 seacocks is it. I could run copper up and down the bilges and I know that would be at least as good as the dynaplate, but it is practically very difficult to arrange.
oxman
Well-Known Member
Forgive my ignorance but how can attaching all metal objects improve the grounding - surely the contact to water is the most important factor - I have been advised that attaching to a seacock is therefore adequate (although I have yet to test this!!).
2nd question - when talking about a "copper Strap" - how big a strap is required or can a decent domestic 6mm earthing cable from your electrical wholesaler do the job?
2nd question - when talking about a "copper Strap" - how big a strap is required or can a decent domestic 6mm earthing cable from your electrical wholesaler do the job?
jerryat
Well-Known Member
Entirely agree. The grounding for the ATU should be taken to a sintered plate or, far preferably to a cast iron keel using 75mm wide copper foil tape. This will provide a fantastic counterpiise.
Linking metal components together is a definite no-no AFAIC, and these should be linked back to an anode and not form part of the counterpoise system. The best situation is, of course, to connect the tape to the hull in a steel boat - gives superb results!!
Linking metal components together is a definite no-no AFAIC, and these should be linked back to an anode and not form part of the counterpoise system. The best situation is, of course, to connect the tape to the hull in a steel boat - gives superb results!!
jerryat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Forgive my ignorance but how can attaching all metal objects improve the grounding - surely the contact to water is the most important factor - I have been advised that attaching to a seacock is therefore adequate (although I have yet to test this!!).
2nd question - when talking about a "copper Strap" - how big a strap is required or can a decent domestic 6mm earthing cable from your electrical wholesaler do the job?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is absolutely NO need for the metal ground to be connected directly to the water, indeed you will get excellent results by glassing in a copper mat on the INSIDE of your hull. I recommend connecting to a keel bolt simply because most boats have one. A seacock, on it's own is next to ueless as you need surface area to provide the necessary counterpoise to the aerial.
As I noted in an earlier post, you need to obtain some copper tape about 75mm wide (50mm will do) and just a few thousanths of an inch thick - you can tear it easily by hand. It's expensive in this country, but you don't need much. Because of the relatively low surface area copper 'wire' or cable is nowhere near as effective.
Fold the tape over on itself a few times at each end to give it some mass, drill it, and connect directly to the grounding bolt on your ATU (automatic (aerial) tuning unit). Glue or otherwise fix the tape into position along the bilge or adjacent woodwork to your nearest keel bolt, sintered plate or copper mat and connect it.
That's it, though you may wish to do as I and others do and paint it. This will provide excellent protection against early corrosion. The tape is, of course, very thin and therefore vulnerable.
Forgive my ignorance but how can attaching all metal objects improve the grounding - surely the contact to water is the most important factor - I have been advised that attaching to a seacock is therefore adequate (although I have yet to test this!!).
2nd question - when talking about a "copper Strap" - how big a strap is required or can a decent domestic 6mm earthing cable from your electrical wholesaler do the job?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is absolutely NO need for the metal ground to be connected directly to the water, indeed you will get excellent results by glassing in a copper mat on the INSIDE of your hull. I recommend connecting to a keel bolt simply because most boats have one. A seacock, on it's own is next to ueless as you need surface area to provide the necessary counterpoise to the aerial.
As I noted in an earlier post, you need to obtain some copper tape about 75mm wide (50mm will do) and just a few thousanths of an inch thick - you can tear it easily by hand. It's expensive in this country, but you don't need much. Because of the relatively low surface area copper 'wire' or cable is nowhere near as effective.
Fold the tape over on itself a few times at each end to give it some mass, drill it, and connect directly to the grounding bolt on your ATU (automatic (aerial) tuning unit). Glue or otherwise fix the tape into position along the bilge or adjacent woodwork to your nearest keel bolt, sintered plate or copper mat and connect it.
That's it, though you may wish to do as I and others do and paint it. This will provide excellent protection against early corrosion. The tape is, of course, very thin and therefore vulnerable.
chrism
New Member
And what about the aerial? I found something about a halyard aerial at http://www.ropeantenna.com/ which sounds a) cheap and b) effective,,
Any body with experience?
Chris
Any body with experience?
Chris
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
What boat ?
For most monohulls, an isolated backstay is the answer. Some people hoist a wire as needed, but it seems bizarre to have system that you can't use while sailing. Again, I don't take my own advice and I am about to instal a whip because my boat has running backstays.
For most monohulls, an isolated backstay is the answer. Some people hoist a wire as needed, but it seems bizarre to have system that you can't use while sailing. Again, I don't take my own advice and I am about to instal a whip because my boat has running backstays.
captainslarty
N/A
Hi
There is much confusion and old wifes tales etc re ssb grounding.
Dynaplates are not much cop, period.
Copper strip is 'ok' and I am sure the manufacturers make lots of money from it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
YES, you can get an excellent ground by connecting to the keel.. no worries.
I use a single bronze through hull for the ground.. with a 23 foot whip antenna. superb..
If you want to add more metal, then you dont need copper plate or strip, use 6 mm cable, connect each item VIA a 0.1 uF disc ceramic capacitor to produce an RF path and block and dc hence no worries from galvanic interaction.
I service and repair SSB and radio equipment, including new installations and problem solving old ones.
A heck of a lot of ssb noise issues are simply land noise (No worries at sea !), battery chargers, fridges and other euipment. If you can get hold of an old RDF its a great tool, I use one to detect RF interference. works a treat..
Also, use a good quality atu.. the SGC SG230 is the mutts nuts.
Have fun, and gud dx.
Joe
G4XRZ
There is much confusion and old wifes tales etc re ssb grounding.
Dynaplates are not much cop, period.
Copper strip is 'ok' and I am sure the manufacturers make lots of money from it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
YES, you can get an excellent ground by connecting to the keel.. no worries.
I use a single bronze through hull for the ground.. with a 23 foot whip antenna. superb..
If you want to add more metal, then you dont need copper plate or strip, use 6 mm cable, connect each item VIA a 0.1 uF disc ceramic capacitor to produce an RF path and block and dc hence no worries from galvanic interaction.
I service and repair SSB and radio equipment, including new installations and problem solving old ones.
A heck of a lot of ssb noise issues are simply land noise (No worries at sea !), battery chargers, fridges and other euipment. If you can get hold of an old RDF its a great tool, I use one to detect RF interference. works a treat..
Also, use a good quality atu.. the SGC SG230 is the mutts nuts.
Have fun, and gud dx.
Joe
G4XRZ
beneteau_305_553
Well-Known Member
I use my aluminium toe rail and guardwire system as the ssb ground and just an insulated long wire antenna to the masthead . It works really well and avoids the problems of installing foil etc and insulating the backstay.
Richard
M0EAZ
Richard
M0EAZ
captainslarty
N/A
Aha,, an M0 .. nice one dude... get confused these days with all the bloody new callsigns lol..
yes, the grounding is no big deal..
One could even use counterpoise wires cut to the correct freq for the bands in use.. load them if too long..
most of the advice on internet fora is NOT from radio hams etc.
I have been playing HF for more than 26 years now.. (Originally a G1, just missed G6).
Use what you got, its all a compromise.. but, I must confess, the 23 foot whip is FAR FAR better than an insulated stay - for ME !..
AND, it makes me ketch a 3 master - tall ships race next hee hee... also, spare mast if dismasted - might even try another riding sail on it.. hmmm... a cunning plan.. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
yes, the grounding is no big deal..
One could even use counterpoise wires cut to the correct freq for the bands in use.. load them if too long..
most of the advice on internet fora is NOT from radio hams etc.
I have been playing HF for more than 26 years now.. (Originally a G1, just missed G6).
Use what you got, its all a compromise.. but, I must confess, the 23 foot whip is FAR FAR better than an insulated stay - for ME !..
AND, it makes me ketch a 3 master - tall ships race next hee hee... also, spare mast if dismasted - might even try another riding sail on it.. hmmm... a cunning plan.. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
beneteau_305_553
Well-Known Member
These call signs are very confusing. Full op licence M0 and foundation is M3 why?
and the intermediate is 2E ...
Anyone interested in a marine net on HF for UK waters?
and the intermediate is 2E ...
Anyone interested in a marine net on HF for UK waters?
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
I'm a M0, I am also a 5Z4. Anyone fancy giving me a call on 20m and collecting an exotic callsign? I promise not to mention GMOs.
starfire
Well-Known Member
Ham's everywhere, G0MKK / KJ6ZT
Frankklose
Well-Known Member
Nice idea with the toe rail. How long is the boat.
DL1EEU ex G5ERB / G4YYZ
DL1EEU ex G5ERB / G4YYZ
davidbains
Well-Known Member
I am keen to try and get people interested in a new HF Med hamnet in July/August
Anyone care to suggest frequencies and times ? 7085LSB or 14285USB at say
0600GMT?
Anyone care to suggest frequencies and times ? 7085LSB or 14285USB at say
0600GMT?
DrBob
Well-Known Member
"Ham's everywhere, G0MKK / KJ6ZT"
Except on the air!!!
Sounds a good idea to get a net going. Awfully quite up here in the frozen north. Just got the radio on the boat and up an running.
Dr Bob
GM0ECO
Except on the air!!!
Sounds a good idea to get a net going. Awfully quite up here in the frozen north. Just got the radio on the boat and up an running.
Dr Bob
GM0ECO
yachtfunk
New Member
Or for GRP Hull´s :
Grounding is as important as the antenna itself since it is the antipole to the antenna. The performance of your SSB – equipment - reception and transmission - will be insufficient without good grounding. Steel- and aluminium - vessels bring about optimum grounding properties as for their metal characteristics. Even when an antifouling coating is applied, grounding is realised by capacitive coupling to seawater (capacitive grounding).
It is a much greater challenge to properly ground a GRP – yacht. This can only be realised when allowing for a short cable connection from the tuner to a maximum sized ground plane.
Using dynaplates / sea ground is only a short-term solution to this problem as they start to corrode after a while. Shells and algae add to the problem of loosing effectiveness.
SSB-ground-paint should be applied inside the vessel below the waterline near the antenna – tuner. This also allows for capacitive coupling to seawater. A surface area of about 3qm should be painted for good results. This installation has three major advantages: Firstly, the tuner can be located close to the ground plane. Secondly, we can couple a rather huge area to seawater, and thirdly, the coated area is not susceptible for environmental effects that would lead to corrosion, hence it is maintenance free.
SSB-ground-paint is solvent-free and can easily be applied in the abaft area under the bunks in the bilge. Over coating with conventional spar varnish for conservation is unproblematic. The antenna – tuner is connected to SSB-ground-paint with the help of a broad embedded copper strap. SSB-ground-paint is no lightning protection.
fair winds Joerg
Grounding is as important as the antenna itself since it is the antipole to the antenna. The performance of your SSB – equipment - reception and transmission - will be insufficient without good grounding. Steel- and aluminium - vessels bring about optimum grounding properties as for their metal characteristics. Even when an antifouling coating is applied, grounding is realised by capacitive coupling to seawater (capacitive grounding).
It is a much greater challenge to properly ground a GRP – yacht. This can only be realised when allowing for a short cable connection from the tuner to a maximum sized ground plane.
Using dynaplates / sea ground is only a short-term solution to this problem as they start to corrode after a while. Shells and algae add to the problem of loosing effectiveness.
SSB-ground-paint should be applied inside the vessel below the waterline near the antenna – tuner. This also allows for capacitive coupling to seawater. A surface area of about 3qm should be painted for good results. This installation has three major advantages: Firstly, the tuner can be located close to the ground plane. Secondly, we can couple a rather huge area to seawater, and thirdly, the coated area is not susceptible for environmental effects that would lead to corrosion, hence it is maintenance free.
SSB-ground-paint is solvent-free and can easily be applied in the abaft area under the bunks in the bilge. Over coating with conventional spar varnish for conservation is unproblematic. The antenna – tuner is connected to SSB-ground-paint with the help of a broad embedded copper strap. SSB-ground-paint is no lightning protection.
fair winds Joerg
