Spinnakers & Gennakers?

Dougal

Dougal

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Hi guys
In all my sailing, i’ve never owned, nor even used, a spinnaker or gennaker.
It's becoming clear from observing boats around me (west coast of france) that even in this old bus of a boat (1978 Evasion motor sailor) that we could benefit from one.
Being ketch rigged and and only 32ft, I'm hoping it could be something EASILY managed, whilst sailing single handed.
With the gen furling on the end of the bowsprit, I'm a little confused how this might work.
I NEVER sail competitively, so my ignorance is suggesting perhaps a gennaker?
I don't think it would be used very often, so I really don't want to spend big bucks.
How would you guys recommend I start?
Do such items ever appear on the 2nd hand market?
 
My boat is an old Centurion 32 from 1973.
I mostly sail solo and I regularly *used* my gennaker (with a sock) but I couldn't imagine managing that with a spinnaker - even though two came with the boat.

*used* because three months ago I fell off the deck onto the hard and that has effectively put a stop to my sailing... as far as this summer is concerned. :(
 
A spinnaker on a pole can be used at a much wider range of wind angles. With a gennaker you may find that your course is dictated by the need to keep the gennaker full and drawing.

If you are doing short sails say 5 to 10 miles then a code zero on a top down furler would give you something that can be rolled out and back in as required.

Longer trips and the spinnaker would be better IMHO even though setting up the pole and sorting out all the lines takes time. Again IMHO a sock makes handling it much easier but pratice in light winds with someone along with you to help if it all goes piton on you.

I used a spi on a pole alot on my slow 38 ft Ryton.
 
Suggest you look on the websites of some of the big sailmakers like Kemps, Crusader, Saunders, Elvestrom etc as they all have sections explaining the various types and their uses.

The most common is what is normally known as a cruising chute which is a lightweight sail usually an area somewhat similar or a bit larger than the total plain sail area and flown from a point forward of the jib. It is usually cut to operate in winds from 60 to 150 degrees typically up to apparent winds in the mid teens.

Launched from the foredeck as needed but often uses a sock so that it is only set and doused as required. This can be done from the cockpit. Becoming more common is a similar type sail but set on top down furler which uses a torque rope to furl and unfurl the sail. The advantage of this is that it can be set up furled and then deployed from the cockpit - both unfurled and furled. I have one of these and it is easy in the sort of conditions you would want to use it, to do it singlehanded.

Not a cheap buy. A plain one with a sock uphaul, downhaul and sheets for your size boat would be £1000-1500 plus a bowsprit if needed. A Selden one cost about £350 plus fitting. A top down furler would roughly double that price. mine for aa 33' boat with all the control gear cost over £3k. Not sure a used sail the right size would be easy to find secondhand.

Good news is that they really do make offwind sailing better, particularly if you have a fractional rig with a small headsail or a selftacker.
 
Tranona said:
Not a cheap buy. A plain one with a sock uphaul, downhaul and sheets for your size boat would be £1000-1500 plus a bowsprit if needed. A Selden one cost about £350 plus fitting. A top down furler would roughly double that price. mine for aa 33' boat with all the control gear cost over £3k. Not sure a used sail the right size would be easy to find secondhand.
Click to expand...

if you're savvy and scour the obscure search words on the usual sites they do pop up from time to time, i found one for £350 including sock, never used.

found a few while searching for various size boats all in acceptable condition as rarely used or sat in peoples attics etc. - admittedly took a while to find the right one for me, but bargains are to be had.

equally the usual sail makers have some second hand ones for sale but they're normally more £££ than the likes of ebay etc put if wanted one quick they might have the right size, worth a call.

i.e. this site;

https://www.cjmarine.co.uk/usedsailagency
 
In my view, cruising chutes are great for fairly easily driven boats in light air.
When there's not much wind, you don't have to gybe far away from dead down wind for the boat speed to bring the apparent wind forwards enough for the chute to work nicely, without poling it out. This works for me when most AWB owners, let alone Motor Sailor enthusiasts are motoring downhill say there is no wind.
The boat will improve its speed enough to get over the increased distance sailed.
Of course, sometimes where you actually want to go is a nice reach, or you can decide to go where a reach takes you. But we spend a lot of time going up and down the coast, which is up and down the prevailing wind. YMMV.

OTOH, a symmetric kite on a pole works well in a big more wind on a less easily driven boat such as a motor sailor with a big fixed prop. You can go dead down wind, or broad reach in a bit more breeze, going exactly where you want to go.
I don't know the OP or his boat so please excuse the generalisations.
Both Asy and sym kites vary a lot in their reaching and running capabilities.

The asy is quicker to hoist etc, but a well organised pole kite system need not be too time consuming, even singlehanded, in the context of a passage from place to place rather than perhaps an evening trip around the bay. The downside might be more hardware required, an additional line in the mast particulatrly, as a pole uphaul is required.
Used sym kites are often available from racers, perfectly OK for cruisng. Decent used asy's are not common bargains.

So, in the OP's position, if I had to choose one or the other and budget was a major driver, I'd be considering a sym kite and a pole. But it comes down to what kind of sailing is on the cards, then you can estimate the gains of either type.
But singlehanded with a kite of any flavour, one normally wants a bit of sea-room and a good autopilot. Perhaps more so with symmetric.
 
many thanks for the serious thought gone into these replies. it's appreciated.
I think my main restrictions will be real estate for deck hardware, and that my genoa is already out there at the end of the fixed bowsprit.
The guys I've been watching, make it look so easy to launch and douse these chutes without poles.
Most of my sailing (95%+) is 'A to B' stuff, up and down the French West coast. I'm almost never out for an afternoon sail.
 
Basically I am guessing you want more sail area when sailing in light winds. So you need an additional light weight sail (nylon) that you can set easily single handed. This means either a stay sail from mizzen mast forward. This may be fouled by the main sail. Or a cruising type code 0 or asymmetric spin up front. I wonder if you could benefit by moving the fore stay back along the bow sprit . This will enable you to fit an asymmetrical kite to the bow sprit end. A furler would be ideal for this role. Expensive but very conveneient. Or set it up so you can pull it up easily in some manner. Or just accept you present performance in light airs. ol'will
 
Given the OP's stated lack of experience I'd say a cruising chute is the way to go. Despite some limitations he'll use it more than he ever would a symmetric with pole.

It just needs somewhere for a tack. Very hard to advise without at least photos but I'm sure someone locally will be able to give good advice. If the location is hard to reach a tack line adjustable from the cockpit will solve those issues.

Then just need two blocks for the sheets. Twinners would help a bit with the trim but aren't essential. And of course a halyard.

Socks have their good and bad moments. A few trips out on a local club racer should give the OP the rudiments of getting it down if something goes wrong with the sock, but they do mainly work.

OP also need to appreciate the angles within which an assymetric (cruising chute) will work. Cheapest option, as already said, is to get a second hand one. If getting a new one then talk to the sailmaker. For example, I can't reliably carry mine below 140, which can be frustrating, but I can push it up to at least 70 degrees to the apparent wind, which can be great fun. That said, I've not got frustrated enough to splash out for another one.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
It might be worth considering a Mizzen Staysail on a Ketch.
Click to expand...

Yep, we have a mizzen staysail. We fly ours with genoa, main and mizzen staysail. We drop the mizzen and sheet the mizzen staysail out to the end of the mizzen boom. The mizzen staysail is the same area as our mainsail so it gives you some idea of increase in sail area. The mizzen staysail often gives us an extra knot of boat speed in light winds. The mizzen staysail is our favourite sail on the boat. Very easy to fly and drop. Made of spinnaker material.
The mizzen staysail option means you don't have to go forward of the mast to set or drop and you don't need a sock. Very simple and effective
We also have a large asymmetric racing spinnaker that we always fly on a pole but we have two people onboard.
 
geem said:
Yep, we have a mizzen staysail. We fly ours with genoa, main and mizzen staysail. We drop the mizzen and sheet the mizzen staysail out to the end of the mizzen boom. The mizzen staysail is the same area as our mainsail so it gives you some idea of increase in sail area. The mizzen staysail often gives us an extra knot of boat speed in light winds. The mizzen staysail is our favourite sail on the boat. Very easy to fly and drop. Made of spinnaker material.
The mizzen staysail option means you don't have to go forward of the mast to set or drop and you don't need a sock. Very simple and effective
We also have a large asymmetric racing spinnaker that we always fly on a pole but we have two people onboard.
Click to expand...

Sounds well sorted.
I race dinghies with asy's.
Fast dinghies go well with asy's, slower dinghies go better with sym kites.
I think this reads across to yachts.
Only my opinion, others are available at no cost I think?
 
Dougal said:
many thanks for the serious thought gone into these replies. it's appreciated.
I think my main restrictions will be real estate for deck hardware, and that my genoa is already out there at the end of the fixed bowsprit.
The guys I've been watching, make it look so easy to launch and douse these chutes without poles.
Most of my sailing (95%+) is 'A to B' stuff, up and down the French West coast. I'm almost never out for an afternoon sail.
Click to expand...

I've been experimenting with an ATN tacker (well one i made from a fender for £13 thanks to this forum) and short handed that works fine, if your going downwind though it wont be anything like a spinnaker on a pole, but does fly like a larger genoa and makes better speed

regarding deck hardware i managed to make it work with existing deck hardware other than some new sheets for the spinnaker thanks to the atn copy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu0uXjSaZR4 some other vids on there of us sailing with it.

the sock - if you're so inclined you can douse it before gybing and then re-set it on the opposite side, although its easy enough to gybe without getting yourself into a flap with some practice.

spinnakers can become addictive though as im looking for a pole now to fly true downwind, the speed you get from the spinnaker - especially in light airs is great and keeps the iron sail in the bag for longer. although the pole may be a bit of a faff single handed but ill give it a go.
 
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Until I changed boats this year I had always carried a spinnaker, but have to admit the hassle it involved when sailing single handed tended to persuade me to leave in the the turtle, I have used it single handed but it’s difficult to get the best out of on your own.
My new boat came with a cruising shute, it’s so much less hassle, a light whisker pole, no uphaul and downhaul, it doesn’t stay in the bag. OK it has limitations but I think unless one is into racing and being really competitive a shute seems to make sense, especially if you often go single handed or maybe like the OP in the early stages of their sailing lives.
 
A chap with the same boat as ours (Sadler 32) has got a gennaker - so he has a sort aluminium bowsprit that he pops it on - says he uses it a lot - almost every time he goes sailing. it's on a furler but because it's so easy to set and is useful both on the wind and off the wind (maybe with a pole to pole out) his cruising chute is broadly redundant (ease of use = regular use).

we've only got a cruising chute so no idea myself, just repeating what he said
 
lw395 said:
Sounds well sorted.
I race dinghies with asy's.
Fast dinghies go well with asy's, slower dinghies go better with sym kites.
I think this reads across to yachts.
Only my opinion, others are available at no cost I think?
Click to expand...

Our asymmetric is 1700 sq ft. After much discussion with the sailmaker we opted for the asymmetric. We never intended to use it without a pole but we wanted stability. Our old bell shaped symmetrical spinnaker was terrible. It collapsed all the time. The asymmetric is in a different league for stability but only ever set on the pole. Very happy with performance of the sail. It's our nitrous oxide button when we need it....
 
1700sq ft is fairly serious, even two-up!

I wonder whether your symmetrical kite was just not a great sail, or whether it has a hard job to be stable, beng located downwind of a ketch rig?
 
lw395 said:
1700sq ft is fairly serious, even two-up!

I wonder whether your symmetrical kite was just not a great sail, or whether it has a hard job to be stable, beng located downwind of a ketch rig?
Click to expand...
Well the symmetrical sail was unstable when poled out to one side of the main. We don't use the mizzen when dead down wind. The same sail set up with the asymmetric is totally stable by comparison. The symmetrical spinnaker was pretty old so could well of been a poor sail shape. We like the asymmetric as we can fly it with the wind forward of the beam and still get a benefit from it. I don't think a symmetrical sail would do this for us. In light winds we have been know to fly mizzen staysail, main and spinnaker giving us a whopping 2500sqft of sail on a 44ft boat. All flown by husband a wife team and not much arguing.....
 
Dougal,

in your position I'd definitely go for a cruising chute; a tri-radial cut will allow use with a bit of luck right up to a fine reach in light winds.

I have a lot of experience with traditional spinnakers on racing dinghies and cruisers; when I first sailed a modern International 14 dinghy with an asymmetric it was a revelation - so easy and safe to handle !

As your headsail is already on the end of your bowsprit, the best compromise would be a wire strop just ahead of this somehow for the tack of the 'chute; maybe with the ability to haul this strop in and out for safety rather than dangling over the sprit end.

Unlike trad spinnakers, if hit by a gust you can let the sheets fly to spill wind; that and the general ease of handling - with trad spinnakers, especially single handed, it's easy to drop the sail ahead of the boat so it goes around the keel - the sort of fun we can all do without.

A chute may need poling out now and again but really one can treat it like a big jib -this all makes it a first choice I'd have thought.

I have small ( ' shy ' ) and large trad ' spinnakers, and a tri-radial chute, I usually sail alone or with novice crew - the only sail which sees the light of day is the 'chute.
 
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