Spinnaker - sheets & guys vs sheets only ?

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Boo2

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Hi, question as title :

Can someone explain to me the trade-offs between using spinnakers with sheets & guys vs sheets only ? The boat I trained on (First 36.7) had sheets only and no spi winches and I'm not really sure what the guys do that the sheets can't ?

Thanks,

Boo2
 
Gybing, especially on a boat with masthead rig and a babystay, is far easier with a dual sheet and guy setup. With sheets only presumably you use a barber hauler? That's extra kit that I prefer to be without. My guys are permanently rigged to snatch blocks just aft of the mast at maximum beam, makes it far easier when shorthanded. I use the genoa winches for the guys and small sheet winches that are plenty big enough for the light loads.
 
A spinnaker has a sheet and a guy. The guy goes through the pole. Having the guy clipped to the spinnaker and the sheet attached to that just makes things easier.

When gybing it's easier to have a sheet and the new guy both attached to one corner and vice versa. When you go to gybe you take some slack out of the new guy so as you dip the front of the pole (or end to end) you have the guy there with no load on it so it's much easier to clip into the end of the pole before loading up on the new course.
 
snooks said:
A spinnaker has a sheet and a guy. The guy goes through the pole. Having the guy clipped to the spinnaker and the sheet attached to that just makes things easier.

When gybing it's easier to have a sheet and the new guy both attached to one corner and vice versa. When you go to gybe you take some slack out of the new guy so as you dip the front of the pole (or end to end) you have the guy there with no load on it so it's much easier to clip into the end of the pole before loading up on the new course.
Click to expand...

the4 Guy is often a larger dia too
 
A few things.

The guy (whether it is dedicated or not) goes through the pole end. Because of the pressure on it - particularly when reaching with the pole near the forestay - means that it should be led to the toerail near amidships to get the best angle. This is accomplished either through dedicated guys, or through barber-haulers on the sheets.

There is more load on the guy, so it can be a good idea to have larger diameter.

In strong winds the loads can be so high that it can be impossible to do dip-pole gybe and re-attach the pole to the mast, if the other end is clipped on to the loaded-up sheet (now guy). With lazy sheets/guys, during gybes you can fly the kite with the sheets, while attaching the guy and pole with no load on them.

With larger boats, that dip-pole gybe, lazy sheets/guys are essential, because you NEED to fly the kit with sheets only while the bowman faffs about with the guys on the bow. So to speak.

I raced a lot on a J-36. We used lazy sheets and guys. I think that is about the crossover size (except perhaps in strong wind). On a 32 footer we used one set only, and it worked ok.

On the 36.7 - do you mean no DEDICATED spinnaker winches? Because I find it hard (impossible) to believe that you could fly a kite on a First 36.7 without using winches. I don't have DEDICATED spi winches on my 21 footer, but there is no way I could fly a kite without putting the sheets on a winch.
 
I use sheets only on our 37 when we sail two up. To gybe except in light airs we pull the snuffer down,, gybe, hand the pole across and then pull up the snuffer.
Wouldnt do if we were racing but for cruising it takes away much of the drama when short handed.
I have snatch blocks on the widest beam and just run the windward sheet through it when we gybe and release the leward one.
It works for us.
 
I have a 35' old fashioned boat with masthead rig

I copied the system off my osprey if I'm honest

Single sheets
barber haulers mid ship
pole uphaul off the mast from middle of pole

but there are two key points to the decision I think which determines the changover

My pole goes end for end on the gybe
Barber haulers keep the pole low when reaching

Also we're cruising so we gybe well off the wind and keep the kite in the lee of the main while we clip on the new guy
and we don't fly it in strong winds

We only have one set on winches so have to roll genny first and clear winches for kite. couldn't fly it without winches.
 
I grew up racing in San Francisco Bay. On a typical summer afternoon it blows force 4 or 5. The first boat that I sailed on didn't have a lazy guy set up and it was end for end gybing on a 23' boat. I think that that is good up to around 30' but really depends more on the size of the sail then the length of the boat. Even with end for end gybing it is easier with a lazy guy and sheet in heavy air. In light air you can muscle the spin into place. On a cruising boat the kite should come down before the wind gets that strong.
 
Tom Price said:
And by 'barberhauler' do you mean 'Pole Down'?
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I don't know what you mean by "pole down", capitalised or not, but a barber-hauler (in any context) is a line pulling another line sideways.

In this case, the sheet is threaded through a block on its way from cockpit to clew, and a short line runs from the eye on the block to the toe-rail somewhere approximately level with the mast. When the line is being used as a sheet the barber-hauler is slack and the block does nothing, when being used as a guy the barber-hauler is pulled in, bringing the block down near the toe-rail, and causing the sheet/guy to be led from there rather than direct from the cockpit.

Pete
 
barber hauler

Surely the guy (that's the string controlling the pole) needs to have its angle maximised, particularly when the pole is eased right forward almost onto the forestay to fly the kite shy, and that's what a jockey pole is for, pushing the guy further out from the point of maximum beam.

Pole down, like Pole Up, starts from a bridle on the pole and leads to somewhere convenient UNTIL you rig up a block at the base of the mast.
THEN you can swing the pole forward and back in the same plane.

Have I been doing it wrong for 40 years?

PS It seems you are using only single lines and of course need a barberhauler to bring the 'guy' down to midships. I always fit a second 'lazy' pair of lines - tho' most charter boats are not as well-equipped. With twin halliards and running backstays we had nearly 30 bits of string round the cockpit - and five or six crew to cope!

RIPTIDE.jpg
 
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Tom Price said:
Surely the guy (that's the string controlling the pole) needs to have its angle maximised, particularly when the pole is eased right forward almost onto the forestay to fly the kite shy, and that's what a jockey pole is for, pushing the guy further out from the point of maximum beam.
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This is true, however the advances in rope technology, especially in reducing stretch have pretty much done away with the need until rather big boats.

Pole down, like Pole Up, starts from a bridle on the pole and leads to somewhere convenient UNTIL you rig up a block at the base of the mast.
THEN you can swing the pole forward and back in the same plane.
Click to expand...

If you leave the pole down in the centre of the foredeck the pole down also pulls forward which ensures that the kite stays at the end of the pole, rather than having the clew floating in space ahead of the pole.
 
Sorry . . .

1 Managing a shy kite depends on geometry, not rope material.
2 Bringing Pole Down to mid-foredeck means another adjustment every time you tweak the kite - unnecessary if you have optimised the geometry.
 
Tom Price said:
1 Managing a shy kite depends on geometry, not rope material.
2 Bringing Pole Down to mid-foredeck means another adjustment every time you tweak the kite - unnecessary if you have optimised the geometry.
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1. As the pole goes forward the angle reduces. If the rope is stretchy the pole bounces more as the loads go up. Hence jockey poles to reduce the angle. Now not as necessary, because the reduced stretch in the ropes available now means you retain the control. I don't think there's been a yacht under 50 foot designed with a jockey pole in years, because it's no longer necessary - because of the advances in rope technology.

2. Yes it does, but the advantages in being able to pull the pole forward outweigh this. The aim of setting a pole is to fix it rigid, as any movement of the pole is wasted energy that could be used to drive the boat forward. If you rig as you describe, you cannot prevent the pole coming back, so it will not be fixed rigid.
 
flaming said:
The aim of setting a pole is to fix it rigid
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Agree - I'm no spinnaker expert, but on the boat I used to race on years ago the skipper always emphasised the way the outboard tip of the pole was "fixed in space" by equilateral tension from uphaul, downhaul and guy.

What holds Tom's pole forwards before the sail is set?

Pete
 
Tom Price said:
Nobody has mentioned the use of a jockey pole yet.
And by 'barberhauler' do you mean 'Pole Down'?
Click to expand...

In this instance barberhauler refers to a line with a block attached that pulls the windward sheet out and down to the maximum beam of the boat so achieving exactly the same geometry you get with separate guys and sheets. Americans tend to refer to it as a twinning line. As others have said the advantage of separate guys and sheets is when gybing big spinnakers in heavy weather.

I personally think the break point comes at about 70 sq m in more than 25K. Below those figures the simplicity of a single set of sheets wins out. Above that gybing can get a bit hairy without a lazy guy to connect the pole to.

The only boat I've used a jockey pole on was a 55 footer.
 
PeterR said:
Americans tend to refer to it as a twinning line.
Click to expand...

Here on the West Coast we've referred to these lines as the topping lift, foreguy, sheet , lazy sheet, after guy, lazy after guy (the after guy was usually referred to without the term after) and the line referred to as the barberhauler would be the tweaker.

On the East Coast the names are different and more formal. On one boat I raced on it was called the up f#$%er and down f#$%er. I think the Aussies call the guy -- a brace.

I have to agree that I haven't seen a jockey pole used on a boat in years. If the After guy block is set at b-max (Maximum beam) and b-max is close to or in front of the mast the geometry makes a jockey pole redundant. The main problem that we had was figuring whether the next leg was going to be a tight reach or a run. If it was a run we would lead the guy one way thru the lifelines on a reach it would be different.
 
Boo2 said:
Hi, question as title :

Can someone explain to me the trade-offs between using spinnakers with sheets & guys vs sheets only ? The boat I trained on (First 36.7) had sheets only and no spi winches and I'm not really sure what the guys do that the sheets can't ?

Thanks,

Boo2
Click to expand...

IMHO it's all about size; if the spinnaker is quite small then a single sheet/guy with baberhauler is fine, once the spinnaker size increases then a lazy set is essential for an easy gybe.

What size though? I have twin lines on my 31ft fractional rig & I wouldn't want to single lines. I have single lines on my 19ft Squib and they are fine. Maybe mid-20ft is the break size?

As for simplicity - a single line with barberhaulers is not much simpler as you still need a block on the deck, something to make the line off, and a block on the barberhauler too.
 
Spinnaker Brace & Sheet Setup

Hi, would you recommend connecting the spinnaker sheet clip to the brace clip, and then connect the brace clip to the kite? Or connect the brace clip to the spinnaker clip and connect the spinnaker sheet clip to the kite? Thanks in advance.
 
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