Spinnaker pole with babystay, also related storm jib question

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Plevier

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Advice appreciated from those who have done it!

I want to fit a spinnaker to my First 29 which has a babystay. This joins the mast at half height by the spreaders.
Is it normal to have the pole up and down hauls between the mast and the babystay and pass the pole through the triangle when end for end gybing, or between the babystay and the forestay and pass the pole in front of the babystay? (I've only done dip pole gybing before.)

The mast has a halyard exiting just below the babystay attachment. However the boat has with it a storm jib which is hanked (the genoa is on furling gear with luff groove) and appears sized to fit on the babystay. Is that a common arrangement? Is the halyard for the storm jib or is it for pole uphaul? It worries me re the storm jib because the babystay is only 5mm (rest of rigging is 6mm) and the "halyard" is small too, 6mm I think, other halyards are 10mm. Does that sound adequate? The storm jib is (obviously) very small.

Alternatively I have a spare masthead genoa halyard - can I use that for pole up?

For the pole down attachment, there is a deck eye half way between the babystay and forestay with no other obvious application. What else could it be for? Alternatively the babystay goes onto an identical eye and I could attach the pole downhaul to that, whether the pole goes in front of or behind the babystay. Finally, would it be better to take the pole downhaul to the base of the mast if it's to go through the triangle - but I don't have a spare attachment point there, would have to arrange something.

I hope someone else with babystay and kite can illuminate me. Would be particularly interested to hear from any First 29 owners as I don't know any others (sob!) :-( even though several hundred were built.

Thanks
 
Yes I appreciate your problem. My own boat has no baby forestay so not so much difficulty. i do spin a lot though.

I would suggest that you go firstly for gybing the pole inside the small triangle of mast to baby stay. Use the existing topping lift to take the weight of the pole.
Down haul however is difficult. It is unlikely you could get enough power if you led down haul from, the base of the mast. Only suitable for the smallest of boats.
Most boats of your size use a barber hauler system. That is the 2 spin sheets pass through a pulley (or ring) attached to a rope going through a pulley on the gunwhale about half way from mast to bow. These ropes lead aft to the cockpit with cleats. The hauler on the bracee (windward side is hauled in so the bracee leads via the pulley from low down so holds the pole down.
When you gybe (in fact before you gybe you pull the barber hauler down on the sheet (soon to become the brace). After the gybe you free off the hauler on the new sheet.
This is a compromise however. For shy reaching you want the hauler attachment forward while for runninng you want it further aft.

I advocate letting the pole rise when reaching to free off the luff so allow it to set closer to the wind. This is difficult with the barber hauler as freeing the haulker also allows the pole to press hard on the forestay and not rise.

For many years I had 2 down haulsoperating from pulleys about 1/3 distancee back from bow to mast. These clipped onto the pole itself. When shy they helped pull the pole off the forestay but allowed the brace to be pulled hard to hold the pole off the forestay but still alowed it to rise.
They did require however that the down hauls be removed and fitted before each gybe. They had very good down haul power from the geometry. A very good system if you don't gybe too often.
I tend to gybe 3 or 4 times in 3 spin runs in a 2 hour race so we need a handy system.

Only late last season I went to the barber haulers. After sailing on larger boats using them. I still have the down haul system in place and mean to use it in shy reaching but tend not to have time to set it up. I will try again next season. good luck olewill
 
Where does the uphaul come out of the mast? If it's above the baby stay you'll have to end for end the pole for'd of the baby stay. If it's below you'll have to pass the pole inside the baby stay.

The main problem with a furling headsail is working out how to hoist the storm jib without having to unfurl the whole headsail in a gale to drop it. You either have to do the sail change in plenty of time or find another way of attaching the storm jib. That I suspect is why your storm jib is set up to be hoisted up the baby stay.
 
Thank you olewill.
Interesting idea. I'm familiar with Barber Haulers but not with the idea that they could let you do away with the pole down. I thought the idea was just to change the angle to correspond to the guy on a set up with separate sheets and guys, which (in my experience) would still have a pole downhaul.
Food for thought.
Mike
 
Thanks Pete Cooper.
From the Finot website there is a link to a magazine article with a good pic of a 29 with a kite up. It looks as though they use the halyard that's just inside the babystay, and take the downhaul to the babystay deck eye, i.e. the pole goes through the triangle.
Mike
 
[ QUOTE ]
I used to sail an Oceanis 440 for The Grey and Bearded One [a well-known sailing-school owner!], who had our babystay fitted with one of these goodies with a pelican-hook. For downwind work, we moved the babystay to a fitting at the shrouds , and for the beat the foredeck re-fitted the babystay, and some checkstays balanced the babystay to stop the stick inverting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Adamastor. This possibility had occurred to me but I lay down in a dark room until it went away again! A bit too much excitement I suspect!
Mike
 
[ QUOTE ]
Where does the uphaul come out of the mast? If it's above the baby stay you'll have to end for end the pole for'd of the baby stay. If it's below you'll have to pass the pole inside the baby stay.

The main problem with a furling headsail is working out how to hoist the storm jib without having to unfurl the whole headsail in a gale to drop it. You either have to do the sail change in plenty of time or find another way of attaching the storm jib. That I suspect is why your storm jib is set up to be hoisted up the baby stay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi JCP

The lower halyard is below the babystay, but I also have a spare genoa halyard, so I think I could do it either way. However all the feedback at the moment points to below the babystay.

Re the stormjib, yes I can see the attractions of doing it this way on the babystay - I'm just worried about the strength.

mike
 
Could risk the stick to put a storm jib on the babystay without checkstays. A common way round this is to fit a deployable inner forestay attached fairly close to the foestay itself so that the backstay supports both. This is fitted with a highfield lever or similar so that it can be parked on a u-bolt near the shrouds when not needed but deployed on a strong-point on the foredeck when required. I normally use this inner forestay for a blade staysail, but it is perfect for the storm jib when required.
 
Thanks for the comments. I have seen such an inner forestay on bluewater boats.
I take it checkstays are attached at babystay/spreader level and swept well back? I don't have them.
I shall have to have a closer look at this storm jib and think how else it could be used.
Mike
 
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