Spinnaker Pole Advice

[howardclark]

I am considering for the first time buying a spinnaker. We are a heavy 46ft wooden boat, cutter rigged.
My problem is with the pole. With having an inner forestay which I’m not prepared to make detachable, we would have to end for end the pole, but it looks as though the general advice is that this isn’t normal on a boat this size due to the unwieldy nature of the pole.
The pole and sail are not a minor cost so I want to take care in making the decision.
Can I ask whether anyone out there is using an end for end system with a large pole and what practical problems this gives them and indeed how they manage.
My only realistic alternative for light wind dead downwind sailing is to pole out a chute, but I would need a whisker pole that extends to 6m. Which I can’t find.

 

[dunedin]

I certainly wouldn’t try end for end gybing of a pole on a heavy 46 footer.
But unless planning to race, the simple solution is to focus on a good system to hoist and drop the spinnaker. Then simply drop the spinnaker and if need on the other gybe reset the pole before rehoisting. On a heavy cruiser I suspect you will only hoist the kite when doing longer passages and gybing is a rarity.

Equally, don’t get fixated on the extreme lengths of whisker pole some recommend. Most people seem to use a standard length spinnaker pole to goos wing the genoa perfectly adequate.

 

[oldbloke]

I would agree that end for end is not ideal in that size of boat, on the other hand it is certainly not impossible. It's not like you are racing where you are pushing the limits and doing everything in a hurry.
Assuming that spinnaker are new to you as well as the boat, the first thing I would recommend is getting experience with someone who knows what they are doing. Secondly get it setup properly, with the proper gear and twin guys and sheets. Try and find a carbon pole cos they are so much lighter and when buying the sail tell them what you want it for and get a nice well behaved stable sail.
A good way to practice is to get a flat calm day don't put any fore and aft sails up and motor backwards to generate a nice gentle puff

 

[Sandy]

My only realistic alternative for light wind dead downwind sailing is to pole out a chute, but I would need a whisker pole that extends to 6m. Which I can’t find.

Have you considered getting something fabricated?

Have you priced a Parasailor?

 

[rogerthebodger]

My 50ft boat has a dipping type of spinnaker pole on my cruising kite that I can pull up the mast front when tacking the kite to get round the inner forestay

 

[jlavery]

I don't think end for end is practical on a boat of this size, especially with an inner forestay.

As I think through the sequence, we're going to have at one point a large, heavy (even if it's carbon) pole having to be manhandled around the inner forestay, with both ends free. You're going to have to have a very good afterguard keeping the boat and kite stable throughout the entire operation. Remember - for end-to-end, it's usually an case of unclipping when the load on the guy has been reduced, swinging it laterally across the foredeck, and re-clipping on the new guy. And with a pole which is at a height which can easily be reached.

If you're cruising, as mentioned in a previous reply, it's not much hassle to drop (or snuff if using a snuffer), swap the pole over, and re-hoist. This is what we do on our Sweden 36 which has a fixed babystay (although this is when we're 2-handed).

If you're racing, and want a slick operation, then either hoist the inboard end up the mast so it can pass inside the inner forestay on a modified dip-pole gybe, or have two poles and two mast fittings.The latter is what is done on a 1973 Holman & Pye which I've done bow on.

 

[William_H]

I can't help feel this is a foolish idea to fit a spinnaker to a 46ft wooden cutter. I presume you feel it is a bit under powered at times. I would think an assymetric spinnaker or code zero on an extended bow sprit might be more useful and manageable.
Mean while a whisker pole for the genoa jib does not have to be so long. Essentially any pole long enough to take the clew outboard by just a few feet will help stabilise it when running. Longer will be a little better. However as you make whisker pole longer so force the sail out near to 90 degrees to the wind you invoke much large loads on the pole. I would suggest you seek out an old wind surfer mast and fit end fittings to attach to mast and jib sheet. Cut it shorter if it looks a bit wobbly in stronger winds. You should fit a topping lift. Possibly just a rope attached part way up the mast (not adjustable from cockpit) This will take the weight of the pole when fitting it and perhaps save it from going over board. I stow my spinaker pole parallel to the mast so topping lift always attached. ol'will

 

[howardclark]

I’ve got a chute on an extended bowsprit which is great on any sort of a reach but just won’t set when deep downwind. We do a couple of passage events where a gentle downwind breeze has left us stranded whilst the rest of the fleet hoist spinnakers and disappear!
I need to think!

 

[oldbloke]

You can pole out asymmetric spinnaker too, either by the clew as with a jib, or , better but more complicated by the tack.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Buy a second pole and gybe with two poles, that is how it is set up on my boat, works okay. I also have a snuffer and when the spinnaker is up, partially snuff the kite before the gybe.

However, I hope to buy a cruising chute and do away with the spinnaker because the chute is simpler to use. I would go down the cruising chute road. Talk to a sail maker before doing, buying anything, detailing your objectives i.e. light wind, down wind sailing.

 

[oldbloke]

Slightly off topic but, do you have a mizzen staysail? The only reason I would get a 2 master is so I could fly one.

 

[michael_w]

Twin poles and double sheets and guys is the way to go.

 

[dunedin]

Twin poles and double sheets and guys is the way to go.

But a lot of extra gear and cost for twin poles, which may be rarely used. Single pole and perhaps a snuffer to get rid of sail briefly during a rare gybe could be much simpler and cheaper.
Also, the suggestions of asymmetric are better for lighter / faster boats which make up most of the extra distance from zig zagging by going faster, but heavy boats often don’t gain much speed on a broad reach, and so are faster with a symmetric going near dead downwind.

 

[ashtead]

It’s not clear how many foredeck crew you have and their size,age and skill as that might be a material consideration as to approach adopted. Personally I would have thought a longish pole being end to ended in manner which is fine on say a lightweight gk24 etc might be a somewhat unwelcome task for many. Looking at similar sizes boats say an oyster 45 etc from ARC in the carribean twin poles seem popular although I haven’t used such a system. At 41ft we have a pole on mast fixed end etc but sadly we don’t have the full on spinnaker and make do with cruising chute on top down furler etc but clearly this option doesn’t appeal.

 

[Laser310]

on small boats set up for end-for-end gybing, usually there is only one line attached to each clew.

big boats do end-for-end by rigging both a sheet and guy to each clew - with the guys either to a turning block forward on deck, or through adjustable twings.

this works pretty well - the kite gets stabilized enough to move the pole.

still, 46ft is kind of big.., but it depends more on how big the kite is. Is it masthead or fractional?

i think the inner stay will be the bigger problem, but not having done it with an inner stay, I don't actually know.

of course, it will depend on how far aft that stay is too.

 

[howardclark]

Yes we do have a mizzen staysail- am going to speak to a couple of suppliers next week armed with your ideas

 

[jdc]

My boat is also a cutter, 42 not 46' long but fairly heavy nonetheless, and we have a spinnaker. The pole is asymmetric, and the mast end is not detachable (ie not without without spanners etc). We use the spinnaker quite a bit - one time during the 3-peaks race we gybed 19 times while transiting the Menai straits, and that at LW springs!

Our technique depends on wind strength, crew size and experience and whether we're cruising or racing:
Easy method is the snuff the spinnaker and then detach and reattach the pole the other side of the forestay and un-snuff the sail on the new tack. It's invariably what we do when cruising two-up as a couple.

Harder but quicker is keep the spinnaker flying:
1. detach the pole from the guy (having set the uphaul such that it will only drop 6" or so)
2. lower the up-haul while the mast person raises the inboard end of the pole enough that it can be passed across inside the inner forestay
3. adjust to steer dead downwind and adjust sheets so that the spinnaker is flying from the two sheets, with the guys slack
4. clip what will be the guy into the jaw of the pole
5. lower the pole at the mast end and tighten the uphaul to get the pole at the right height
6. adjust sheets and the active guy while the helmsman steers onto the new gybe.
Sometime between 3 and 5, gybe the main.

With practice and 3 or 4 fit people it can be done in 60 to 90 seconds. You have to rig the spinnaker with sheets and guys, both sides.

Here's us about 8 gybes in (the hard dinghy was a bit of a pita during the gybes, but saved our bacon when we had to tow in flat calms).