Spinnaker foreguy/downhaul question

[Boo2]

Hi,

Sunrunner (UFO 34) has a spinnaker foreguy/downhaul set up with a single line back to a coachroof winch via a clutch like the first example in this link.

I have been reading the .pdf book "Thoughts, Tips, Techniques & Tactics for Singlehanded Sailing" by Andrew Evans which is available here and he suggests that the foreguy/downhaul should be accessible from the standard helm position which means running twin lines back to the cockpit as per the second example in the first link.

If I do this then I won't be able to use a winch on the foreguy/downhaul and I just wondered whether there are likely to be any circumstances where that will be a drawback when single handing a spinnaker on a 34 foot boat ?

Aside from the accessability issue there would be the advantage for me in freeing up a coachroof clutch which I am in sore need of for other lines.

Any comments or advice gratefully received,

Boo2

 

[sailorman]

Hi,

Sunrunner (UFO 34) has a spinnaker foreguy/downhaul set up with a single line back to a coachroof winch via a clutch like the first example in this link.

I have been reading the .pdf book "Thoughts, Tips, Techniques & Tactics for Singlehanded Sailing" by Andrew Evans which is available here and he suggests that the foreguy/downhaul should be accessible from the standard helm position which means running twin lines back to the cockpit as per the second example in the first link.

If I do this then I won't be able to use a winch on the foreguy/downhaul and I just wondered whether there are likely to be any circumstances where that will be a drawback when single handing a spinnaker on a 34 foot boat ?

Aside from the accessability issue there would be the advantage for me in freeing up a coachroof clutch which I am in sore need of for other lines.

Any comments or advice gratefully received,

Boo2

mine is a similar boat, the downhaul is through a movable block ( SS with block & becket) with a single block with SS to the pole end. this affords some reduction in rope loads & is led along the coachroof /deck join through bullseyes
to a winch

 

[lw395]

If the guys are far enough forward, I'm not sure it's always necessary to be able to winch the foreguy. Some stranglers/chokes/twinning lines deflecting the guy down from around the shroud area on the toe-rail might help.
IMHO, it's important to be able to adjust the guy and foreguy together, so the pole is not left free to do its own thing. You want to be able to ease it progressively while winding the guy in or vice versa.
There shouldn't be much load on the foreguy until things start to get out of shape, but in a broach it can be heavily loaded.
For singlehanded spinnaker are you thinking guys and sheets or one rope being guy or sheet, plus twinning lines? (Dinghy style!).
It comes down to how big a kite in how much wind. The big kite in a blow would want a clutch on the foreguy, but F3-F4 you could use lighter rope rigged as 4:1 to cam cleats either side of the coachroof perhaps?

 

[stav]

My spin pole down haul goes to a cleat at the forward end of the cockpit on the basis that when adjusting it the spinnaker does not have to be heavily loaded but if I need to ease it I can run it off a traditional cleat no matter how loaded up it is.

As for twin cam cleats why bother when single handed as surely these would only get used on a fully crewed boat when maxed out and someone on the rail can tweak the down haul as necessary without affecting the trim?

 

[Boo2]

My spin pole down haul goes to a cleat at the forward end of the cockpit on the basis that when adjusting it the spinnaker does not have to be heavily loaded but if I need to ease it I can run it off a traditional cleat no matter how loaded up it is.

Does this mean the foreguy naturally tries to go forward when the spinnaker guy is eased ? What about bringing the pole back though ? I suppose if you ease the foreguy/downhaul and wind the guy in on the winch the pole basically has to move back with the windward clew ?

As for twin cam cleats why bother when single handed as surely these would only get used on a fully crewed boat when maxed out and someone on the rail can tweak the down haul as necessary without affecting the trim?

I think the idea is that the helm can adjust the foreguy/downhaul without leaving the tiller. The "T,T,T & T for Singlehanded Sailing" book also mentions crossing the sheets up to the windward side of the boat so they can also be adjusted without leaving the tiller.

Thanks to all for the replies,

Boo2

 

[stav]

Does this mean the foreguy naturally tries to go forward when the spinnaker guy is eased ? What about bringing the pole back though ? I suppose if you ease the foreguy/downhaul and wind the guy in on the winch the pole basically has to move back with the windward clew ?

I think the idea is that the helm can adjust the foreguy/downhaul without leaving the tiller. The "T,T,T & T for Singlehanded Sailing" book also mentions crossing the sheets up to the windward side of the boat so they can also be adjusted without leaving the tiller.

Yes that is how it seems to work on my boat when adjusting things, but not the continual smooth motion on a crewed boat. On my boat off a bit with the downhaul, in a bit with the guy etc and viceversa


Wouldn't set the spinnaker without the autohelm on so I am mobile to deal with things but then there is no way on mine to get everything to the helm. That doesn't mean I leave it on and once everything is set I like to take the helm and enjoy the ride. I did recently upgrade the autohelm as ultimately having a strong autohelm makes single handing so much easier.

 

[Foolish Muse]

On my Olson 30 (an ultralight), the mast is relatively short and the spinnaker relatively small compared to other boats in the 30+ foot range. Because of this I can normally pull the downhaul by hand without the need for a winch, even in high wind conditions if I'm also using a tweaker line. It ain't easy in 30 knots - believe me.

It is absolutely necessary to be able to manage the downhaul from the cockpit, at the same time that you are handling the guy. For example it is necessary to ease the downhaul when pulling the guy back to bring the pole perpendicular to the wind. But you must NOT allow the downhaul to get away from you and the pole shoots up. The guy tweaker line will help to keep the pole down, but not always. Make sure to use a strong tweaker line. I've broken several in the past.. What I normally do is ease the downhaul slightly, then pull the pole back until the downhaul is tight again, then ease the downhaul again slightly, and pull the poll back again.

I have been thinking of adding a very small winch to help with the downhaul. I figure that with a couple of wraps around the drum, I could hold the line under my foot, and release a little at a time as I pull the guy back. As a singlehander you need to learn to use different parts of the body to perform functions on the boat. (I recommend against using teeth to hold a tight line. I've tried it and am not happy with the results.)

On a boat with a larger spinnaker, I would be necessary to have a winch for the downhaul, but it must remain workable from the cockpit with the guy in the other hand.

If the winch is selftailing, the it can be used to pull the pole down easily as well, but this would not be necessary as far as I can see.

When sailing with the chute up, I have the sheet led from the leeward side of the boat to the cabin top winch, then across the cockpit to the windward selftailing winch normally used for the jib sheet right beside where I am sitting. (If the jib is still up, I just wrap the spinnaker sheet around the jib sheet on the same winch. With two or three wraps it will hold fine.) With this I have constant control over the sheet while I'm sailing. When on a reach in strong winds, I have gotten so good at managing the sheet and tiller that I (almost) never have broaches and I am able to keep at top speed for very long periods of time. For example last week I did an 8 mile run in 20-25 knots without a single problem, maintaining speeds of 12.5-13.5 along the way.

It is absolutely necessary to have constant control over the spinnaker sheet in winds above 15. If not, the boat WILL get away from you in a gust.

For those who are still shy about flying the spinnaker - get over it! I can't imagine how sailing could even be fun without it. I'll go out and beat into a 20 knot wind for 3 hours just to have a 30 minute spinnaker run home. Start with 10 knots, and follow the advice in my book very carefully. Then move up to 15 knots. Stay there for a year or two before moving to 20 knots. After that you can do anything.

 

[William_H]

Single handed spinnaker

I can't imagine flying spin single handed unlike foolish muse above. I fly spin a lot on the little boat but only with a full crew and then only when trying to teach the bigger boats a lesson. (almost always the case)
On the little boat I rely on tweakers on the sheets. Only used on the brace. This has a lot more power with less load on it. However it does limit pulling the pole back to square. The tweakers must be sited forward enough to give control of the lift of the pole but aft enough to minimise the limiting the pole coming aft.
The tweakers do not need a lot of adjusting when coming from running to reaching.
I confess however that the pole does escape occasionally to go skyward with associated bending of the pole end fitting. Yes a down haul would be good to control the pole on those occasions. I just don't want to give the foredeck crew more work. Even a preventer from the mast base to the middle of the pole would help. This would not need to be adjusted if you mostly rely on tweakers.
I can only suggest you try all the options and see what you like best. good luck olewill
PS just noticed post no 7000 a good number to start new year. Best wishes for the new year to all

 

[Boo2]

When sailing with the chute up, I have the sheet led from the leeward side of the boat to the cabin top winch, then across the cockpit to the windward selftailing winch normally used for the jib sheet right beside where I am sitting.

That's an interesting route. Do you take your spi sheets to a block on the toe rail just forward of the transom ? That's what I've seen recommended in other places.

It occurred to me when I was reading your book that one way of routing the spi sheets "uphill" would be to use double blocks on the toe rail and cross the sheets at the stern. That would mean they run forward the same when crossed as when not crossed and would mean the winch strong point is in the right place in either case. They would also be out of the cockpit. Any comments on that ?

Boo2

 

[sailorman]

That's an interesting route. Do you take your spi sheets to a block on the toe rail just forward of the transom ? That's what I've seen recommended in other places.

It occurred to me when I was reading your book that one way of routing the spi sheets "uphill" would be to use double blocks on the toe rail and cross the sheets at the stern. That would mean they run forward the same when crossed as when not crossed and would mean the winch strong point is in the right place in either case. They would also be out of the cockpit. Any comments on that ?

Boo2

Keep it conventional ( KISS) & install a good A/H

 

[Foolish Muse]

It occurred to me when I was reading your book that one way of routing the spi sheets "uphill" would be to use double blocks on the toe rail and cross the sheets at the stern. That would mean they run forward the same when crossed as when not crossed and would mean the winch strong point is in the right place in either case. They would also be out of the cockpit. Any comments on that ?

Yes, my sheets go to a block on the toe rail. Then forward to the cabin top winch. I leave it there while launching or dousing the chute. After the chute is up, I drop the jib, then lead the sheet back across the cockpit to the windward jib winch. I leave at least one full wrap around the cabin top winch (two in higher winds) so that I can manage the sheet by hand at this point.

When I'm actively sailing with the chute, I have the sheet in hand most of the time, or with just half a wrap around the windward jib winch. This is especially necessary in high winds when roundups can occur.

I just leave the guy on the cabin top winch on the windward side.

Your idea would depend on how far the windward winch is from where you are sitting. It would not work if the winch is too close to you. You often need to make large adjustments to the sheet, pulling in or letting out 5' or more at a time. This would not be possible if the winch is right next to you.

 

[PeterWright]

Be Ready to let lines run

I raced as a trimmer on a UFO34 in the eighties - she's a masthead rig with a big kite and has a reputation as a broacher because the hull form is chosen to give her a good IOR rating rather than to be well behaved.

In view of this, it's essential that you sail her downwind in a way that lets you dump the spinnaker sheet and the kicker on the main when the boat is laying on her beam ends eith ythe boom in the sea - however good a helm you are, it will happen unless you only kite in F3 or less.

I've not read "T,T,T & T for Singlehanded Sailing", but wonder if it offers advice on the kind of boat suitable for solo kiting - your UFO would not be my first choice for this, but should be possible.

I would recommend Sailorman's arrangement for the foreguy - a 2:1 purchase on the foredeck, then back to a clutch and winch. When close reaching with the pole just off the forestay, this will still rip out of your hands if you try to handle it without a winch in F4 or more. I would also recommend sailing with a separate sheet and guy each side. Turning blocks for the guys at point of max beam and the sheets right aft.

The recommendation for a powerful Autopilot is also very relevant for this boat - it will reduce the number of broaches by managing the weather helm better before it turns into a broach. Once you've broached, it doesn't matter if you leave the helm to dump all the power. The rudder will do nothing under human or autopilot control until you get sail off and stand her up again.

When you broach in a seaway, the kite generally fills with water (trawling). To recover from this you need to dump the guy and the halyard and use the sheet to get the sail back aboard.

Bearing all this in mind, find plenty of searoom and make sure your washboard is in place before you go solo kiting in your UFO.

Have fun!

 

[sailorman]

I raced as a trimmer on a UFO34 in the eighties - she's a masthead rig with a big kite and has a reputation as a broacher because the hull form is chosen to give her a good IOR rating rather than to be well behaved.

In view of this, it's essential that you sail her downwind in a way that lets you dump the spinnaker sheet and the kicker on the main when the boat is laying on her beam ends eith ythe boom in the sea - however good a helm you are, it will happen unless you only kite in F3 or less.

I've not read "T,T,T & T for Singlehanded Sailing", but wonder if it offers advice on the kind of boat suitable for solo kiting - your UFO would not be my first choice for this, but should be possible.

I would recommend Sailorman's arrangement for the foreguy - a 2:1 purchase on the foredeck, then back to a clutch and winch. When close reaching with the pole just off the forestay, this will still rip out of your hands if you try to handle it without a winch in F4 or more. I would also recommend sailing with a separate sheet and guy each side. Turning blocks for the guys at point of max beam and the sheets right aft.

The recommendation for a powerful Autopilot is also very relevant for this boat - it will reduce the number of broaches by managing the weather helm better before it turns into a broach. Once you've broached, it doesn't matter if you leave the helm to dump all the power. The rudder will do nothing under human or autopilot control until you get sail off and stand her up again.

When you broach in a seaway, the kite generally fills with water (trawling). To recover from this you need to dump the guy and the halyard and use the sheet to get the sail back aboard.

Bearing all this in mind, find plenty of searoom and make sure your washboard is in place before you go solo kiting in your UFO.

Have fun!

The Truth at last

 

[PeterWright]

Note your heavier boat and larger rig

Foolish Muse's advice all looks good, but pay close attention to his opening remarks about his ultralight Olson 30 and comparison with other 30+ footers. Your UFO is a 70's design IOR masthead rig carrying a spi of around 1200 sq ft of ripstop nylon - the forces will be double those on Andrew's boat.

On the Harken page you linked to it showed the "dinghy" setup for spi sheets as appropriate for cruisers up to 30' and racers up to 27'. For bigger boats, it recommended the 2 sheets / 2 guys set up I proposed. (that link seems to have packed up now), I think Harken are a little conservative - I would be happy with tweakers on a racing boat up to about 30', but beyond that want the security of permanently rigged guys. The main drawback is the need to carry a lightweight sheet for light airs to get the weight off the spi clew.

Peter

 

[sailorman]

Foolish Muse's advice all looks good, but pay close attention to his opening remarks about his ultralight Olson 30 and comparison with other 30+ footers. Your UFO is a 70's design IOR masthead rig carrying a spi of around 1200 sq ft of ripstop nylon - the forces will be double those on Andrew's boat.

On the Harken page you linked to it showed the "dinghy" setup for spi sheets as appropriate for cruisers up to 30' and racers up to 27'. For bigger boats, it recommended the 2 sheets / 2 guys set up I proposed. (that link seems to have packed up now), I think Harken are a little conservative - I would be happy with tweakers on a racing boat up to about 30', but beyond that want the security of permanently rigged guys. The main drawback is the need to carry a lightweight sheet for light airs to get the weight off the spi clew.

Peter

Did you ever own a Co32

 

[Foolish Muse]

Absolutely you will need extra purchase and a winch on a larger spinnaker. My downhaul is already at the point of ripping out of my hands in a strong wind.

With regards to what boat, I answer this question in my book. The best boat for singlehanding is the one you already have. The worst boat is the one you will buy "next year".

Two things come to mind, regardless of the boat and size of the spinnaker. I also discuss these somewhere in my book. Read it, it's free.

First, you should never rely on the strength of the auto pilot to offset poor sail trim, because it won't work once you get into any wind and a broad or beam reach. No auto pilot will stop a broach if the sheet is trimmed too tight. It is up to the skipper to ease the sheet until the luff of the chute is just at the point of curl. And this should be monitored constantly. I find that many singlehanders keep their sheet too tight so that they can leave to do other things without the sail collapsing. This is a mistake that WILL lead to a broach.

Easing the sheet to the correct luff curl also has the additional benefit that if the boat starts to round up, the sail will collapse immediately - by itself. The very last thing you want is the have the boat round up and the sail still full.

Second, once the wind picks up, the sheet can not simply be ignored. The skipper should keep it close at hand so that it can be released immediately if things start to look bad. I have no problem at all sailing with the auto pilot on a broad reach in 25-30 knots if I keep the sheet in hand. Any time the boat starts to round up I just ease the sheet until the chute flogs a bit and the boat comes down again and then I trim to get it flying again. It just takes a few seconds and the boat never slows. It has taken several years and many mistakes before I got to this level, but it is just so much darned fun now that I've got it.

I make the comment in my book that the amount of weather helm on the boat should be no more than could be handled with the strength of a child. Anything more than that is just the result of poor sail trim. It is quite amazing to be sailing with the chute in a real blow and let go of the tiller to pick up my coffee cup. Obviously I can only let go for a few seconds, but you get the point.