spinnaker downhaul position question

Burnham Bob

Burnham Bob

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 Jul 2009
Messages
1,803
Location
Burnham on Crouch
Visit site
On the last boat the spinnaker downhaul was attached to the foot of the mast. On this boat I have an anchor point on the deck for an inner forestay that attaches when needed for flying the storm jib (I assume!). I've always thought that the best place to postion the spinnaker downhaul was here so that the pull is vertically down. However, the Trapper 500 manual shows the downhaul going to a block at the bow roller. The pole will only be used to pole out the genoa when I'm goosewinged so there's no great sail trim magic needed. But do forumites have any advice? What I do have led for'ard from the cocklit and through a block at the bow roller is a line that will be for the tack of the cruising chute. If the bow roller donwhaul position is okay for the downhaul on the pole then I can simply use that line led inside the pulpit rather than led outside as it is for the chute.
 
I think your inner forestay might be a baby stay in which case you may find it's a necessary part of the rig in strong winds / big seas. I would maybe check with the Trapper owners forum.

Should be fine to attach your pole downhaul there assuming the fitting is through bolted with a backing pad etc.
 
it is through bolted and there is even a strop inside that attaches to the hull - but I think it's not a standard fitting on trappers - with a furling head sail and a hank on storm jib the only way to attach the storm jib is on the inner forestay. as i say it seems the natural place to attache the downhaul but the trapper manual clarly shows the down haul going to a block at the bow roller. i wanted to know if anyone else attached the downhaul that far for'ard.
 
Its a while since I played with Kites, but, from memory, I think it was pretty important to have the downhaul block fixed well forrard of the mast, thus allowing the pole to be fixed and pulled forwards if necessary. I dont think it needs to be attached at the stemhead, indeed it might be a pain attached that far forwards.
 
skipperwales said:
Its a while since I played with Kites, but, from memory, I think it was pretty important to have the downhaul block fixed well forrard of the mast, thus allowing the pole to be fixed and pulled forwards if necessary. I dont think it needs to be attached at the stemhead, indeed it might be a pain attached that far forwards.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Most yachts have their spinnaker pole downhaul attached somewhere near the pointy end. Many have two downhauls so you can choose the one you need according to which gybe you are on.

Lead it back to the cockpit as you need to adjust it every time you trim the pole.
 
Not sure what point you are making. I didn't specify what to put the downhaul block on… As it happens we use a snatch-block to a strong point on the foredeck, but my post just said, 'somewhere near the pointy end.

PS Many forestays are attached to the stem head fitting. Which bit of upward force are they not designed to withstand?
 
Since the OP is only going to use it for the headsail when goosewinged, the downhaul becomes more of a fore guy and should definitely be towards the pointy end in my opinion. This makes it easy to 'triangulate' the pole. if you have to gybe the headsail or furl it up in a hurry, the pole stays where it is. A lesson I learned the hard way !
Chris
 
The downhaul for a spin has somewhat different reuirements to down haul for a whisker pole for a genoa. In the case of the spin if the pole is attached at the base of the mast then the pole can swing from near the forestay to abeam without changing its length or height. However this position gives least power to hold the pole down and is a particular problem when running shy with pole on the frorestay.
A downhaul attached to the end of the pole and essentially going straight down has the greatest down pull power. But this is only suitable for one pole angle or position.
As your pole is most likely to be used at rightangles to fore and aft (abeam) then ideally the downhaul should be on the gunwhale abeam the mast.
A down haul at the bow will tend to pull the pole forward which while fighting the jib sheet may be OK but not the best angle of pull.
However as you have the set up at the bow give it a try. I have not found a down haul on jib so critical as sheet tends to hold the clew down anyway. good luck olewill
 
I would use the foredeck position, which BTW does sound like a temporary storm jib point to me, if it was for a baby stay I'm sure that would be obvious, easily checked with other Trappers anyway.

With the DOWNhaul to the foredeck there will be a downward pull on the pole to prevent it skying, which is the natural tendency; led to the stemhead it would lose much of this, fore & aft positioning is down to the sheet, and guy if a kite.
 
You have saod for genoa use so the following might not be totally relevant
Another consideration os how one gybes the pole
With end to end gybe & a downhaul attached mid point of the pole then a downhaul at the base of mast is best
With a dip pole gybe then attached at the stem & thence to the end of the pole would seem better as it puts less bending moment on the pole
If one puts a fitting at the base of the mast then to the end of the pole ( to reduce pole bend)the angle is very shallow as would be with a stem fitting downhaul when the pole is at right angles to the boat
However, with stem fitting downhaul & a spinnaker the the greatest upward stresses on the pole is on a reach with the pole forward. In this case the stem fitted downhaul is more direct in its pull & better
Of course this does not apply with a genoa & it may be easier to have the downhaul fitted to the centre of the pole & to the base of the mast to make gybing easier
Genoas do not stress the pole like a spinnaker
In any event one should consider the options. & experiment. It really depends on what suits you & your boat best
Someone will always prefer it different to you
 
William_H said:
The downhaul for a spin has somewhat different reuirements to down haul for a whisker pole for a genoa. In the case of the spin if the pole is attached at the base of the mast then the pole can swing from near the forestay to abeam without changing its length or height. However this position gives least power to hold the pole down and is a particular problem when running shy with pole on the frorestay.
A downhaul attached to the end of the pole and essentially going straight down has the greatest down pull power. But this is only suitable for one pole angle or position.
As your pole is most likely to be used at rightangles to fore and aft (abeam) then ideally the downhaul should be on the gunwhale abeam the mast.
A down haul at the bow will tend to pull the pole forward which while fighting the jib sheet may be OK but not the best angle of pull.
However as you have the set up at the bow give it a try. I have not found a down haul on jib so critical as sheet tends to hold the clew down anyway. good luck olewill
Click to expand...

Whilst what you say might be true for very small boats with small jibs, I strongly suggest that you can get into a heap of trouble setting up a poled out headsail in the way you describe.

The safest way (as someone else has already mentioned earlier in the thread) is to set the pole up triangulated with topping lift, fore guy and aft guy with the sheet (or an additional spare sheet) through the end of the pole. Then once its all rigid and stable, you can go back to the cockpit and gybe the headsail onto the sheet through the end of the pole. You don't rely on the genoa sheet to do anything except trim the sail. The pole is held rigidly in place by the topping lift, after guy and fore guy.

No more dancing round the foredeck with a pole clipped onto the sheet of sail that's filling and flapping.

If your jib is the size of a large dinghy jib then of course you can use a whisker pole and just poke the thing out, but on any yacht of any size with any largish genoa and on passage over for any length of time, then IMHO the above way is safe and efficient.

I mentioned using a spare sheet as it means that you can leave the normal sheets rove in their normal places. If you suddenly find yourself without an engine and having to make to windward in an emergency (e.g. for a MOB) then you can roll some of the genoa away and you can still sail and tack the boat whilst just leaving the pole set up and the spare sheet through the end of the pole.
 
You dont need a downhaul when poling out a gib - the sheet does it for you. If you wanted one for any reason I cant think of then you would use the toe rail. For a spinny pole the situation is different since the time you most need downward control is when the pole is well forward. But you also need the abilityto jibe the pole and this makes the mechanically inefficient bottom of the mast position much more interesting. I have used both mast bottom and mid foredeck but the latter is a serious trip hazard for my geriatric foredeck gorilla!
 
birdseye said:
You dont need a downhaul when poling out a gib - the sheet does it for you. If you wanted one for any reason I cant think of then you would use the toe rail. For a spinny pole the situation is different since the time you most need downward control is when the pole is well forward. But you also need the abilityto jibe the pole and this makes the mechanically inefficient bottom of the mast position much more interesting. I have used both mast bottom and mid foredeck but the latter is a serious trip hazard for my geriatric foredeck gorilla!
Click to expand...

Hmm - we will have to agree to differ as I think you need two. A foreguy and an afterguy for the safest way as peer my previous post.
 
IMHO - and experience - it really is a good idea to set up a pole properly with topping lift, downhaul and guy when using it to pole out a head sail. It may be a pain and seem overkill, but that way you have compelte control of the sail. You can gybe the headsail very easily if needed, still leaving the pole in position until it's convenient to take it down. If the wind starts to blow, then its dead easy to take in a few rolls in the genoa by loosening the sheet and the pole will stay still comfortably.
 
There is a trade off here, isnt there? In light winds, you dont need guys on the size of boat most of us sail, and in heavy winds you dont want the deckwork involved in rigging guys let alone the issues that would generate when jibing the jib and dipping the pole. Complication = risk. Last thing I want in heavy winds is a pole let alone guys.

I suspect there also is a design issue. We race through the winter and arent shy about flying the two spinnies. Rarely do we need to play with the downhaul.

Mind you this is all purist stuff. On a boat the size of a trapper 500 and in cruising, the whisker pole would be approaching broom handle
 
Last edited:
birdseye said:
There is a trade off here, isnt there? In light winds, you dont need guys on the size of boat most of us sail, and in heavy winds you dont want the deckwork involved in rigging guys let alone the issues that would generate when jibing the jib and dipping the pole. Complication = risk. Last thing I want in heavy winds is a pole let alone guys.

I suspect there also is a design issue. We race through the winter and arent shy about flying the two spinnies. Rarely do we need to play with the downhaul.

Mind you this is all purist stuff. On a boat the size of a trapper 500 and in cruising, the whisker pole would be approaching broom handle
Click to expand...
One of the bits I am really not sure of is the line, "…the size of boats most of us sail on here…"

We had a beginner admitting he single hands his 49' boat the other day.

I know lots of people 'one here' who have boats of a size that poling out a genoa certainly isn't judicious use of a bit of broom handle. I think one ought to be cautious about saying that you don't need guys. There are lots of occasions that you might not, but sailing downwind in a building wind is not the time for a beginner to realise that the quick and easy way wasn't actually such a good idea.
 
Even on my 22' boat the pole is no broom handle, it's a serious ( and expensive ) IYE job one wouldn't want to be hit over the head with !

True the weight will usually prevent it skying when poling out the genny but not when the wind picks up, the OP is being sensible considering a downhaul to keep everything under control; it's when things are sloppy and big sails take their own control that plans go awry.

I think John_Morris was confusing properly poling out a genny - on a masthead rigged 28' boat - with a whisker pole in light airs only.
 
Seajet said:
I think John_Morris was confusing properly poling out a genny - on a masthead rigged 28' boat - with a whisker pole in light airs only.
Click to expand...

I've looked back through the thread and I can't see where I have been confused. Lots of talk of 'polling out the genoa'.

I agree that if its a downwind leg of a few hundred metres as we are ghosting up or down a river, I will happily ask a crew member to hold the clew of the genoa out with the boathook to keep the sail filled.

It was all the talk of 'you don't need a downhaul' etc etc that prompted me to write (and reinforce) that on any reasonably sized boat IMHO you certainly do.
 
John,

it was your slightly surprising assertion that the pole on a Trapper 500 ( remember, a big boat to me and a lot of people here though I've owned bigger and sailed much bigger ) would only be a broomstick affair which got me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top