Spinakker sheet/guy cleating?

[Yellow Ballad]

I'm looking for a bit of spoon feeding please... I flew my spinnaker last weekend for the first time as it was very light and the last sail of the season... I was short handed and cleated off the guy and the sheet in a round about way roughly where I thought they should be leaving my crew to steer whilst I went to the mast to hoist before returning to trim. All went well and it was a great first attempt but I would like to make it easier/update the hardware to suit.

Here's a pic of my coaming to show what I have, please excuse the blured photo it was all I could find.

As you can see the jammer cleats are both setup for the forward winch, I could turn the rear cleat round to suit the rear winch but I quite like using it for the genoa as the front ones are close to the sprayhood. I'm thinking of fitting a rear facing cam cleat on the top of the coaming somewhere forward of the jammer cleat so I can clip the spin sheet/guy on these whilst setting up. Being a cam cleat they can be released pretty quick but I'm worried this will interfere with the genoa sheets. I could put some cam cleats aft of the winch facing forward but this may make it awkward to release in a broach or cleat back off after adjustments.

Has anyone got a good idea or suggestions for holding the sheets/guys whilst shorthanded. Being new to kite flying am I doing/thinking about it all wrong? BTW I won't really be racing, more flying it for fun.

On a secondry note would there be any issues using a dinghy vang 3:1 as a downhaul to the base of the mast? Or would it be better having the downhaul on the end of the spin pole to the bow? I wanted to keep extra lines to a minimum if possible and the uphaul is at the mast so makes sense to keep them together then leading it back over the deck.

Cheers all.

 

[Greenheart]

...would there be any issues using a dinghy vang 3:1 as a downhaul to the base of the mast? Or would it be better having the downhaul on the end of the spin pole to the bow? I wanted to keep extra lines to a minimum if possible and the uphaul is at the mast so makes sense to keep them together then leading it back over the deck.

Well done on your first hoist. :encouragement:

I'm applying the same thinking to my own boat with the ambition to set the spinnaker soon, and I'm sure I have no more idea than you - probably far less - but I think you've answered your own question, there.

Even though the pole-downhaul's leverage could be beneficial if the deck-fitting was well forward, placing it on the mast allows a broad arc of rotation without changing the pole's up/down angle. And considering the immense loads a mainsail-boom vang can withstand, the spinn-pole should be controllable similarly. May be worth increasing it from 3:1 though.

What's the area of your spinnaker? I'm not planning to hoist in weather that may overpower me till I'm well used to how it all works.

 

[William_H]

Pole down haul is a real question. I have tried many ways over many years. I have tried the pole down haul to the base of the mast. Unfortunately there is a huge load here on the down haul because the geometry is not good. I used for a long time 2 down hauls from the gunwhale about half way bow to mast. This goes to the middle of the pole. It provides a low of control but must be taken off and other one fitted when gybing.
However most racing boats around here use a down haul on the brace. In my case a ring on the end of a line which runs through a block on the gunwhale a bit ahead of abeam the mast. This goes back to a cleat on aft end of cabin side. The location of the turning block is a compromise however. Too far aft not enough control power to the pole, too far forward and it is difficult to get pole aft enough when running square. It is however very convenient when gybing a lot as I do.
So you can try all 3 methods but I have settled on the latter.
Regarding cleating the guy and sheet. With a winch available for spin yes just fit a cam cleat. On my little boat I use the jib sheet winch for the spin sheet and guy. The jib if flying still is cleated direct. The sheet is always fairly free.
ol'will

 

[Major_Clanger]

No need for a jammer, and in the case of the sheets, perhaps better to not use one.

Take a few turns around the winch as normal, and then finish off with a tugman's hitch. Very quick, cannot jam, super secure and leaves you able to work the sheet easily once it's thrown off.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Dan, 70m2. It was very light and we had zero apparent wind whilst flying at first and I dropped it at 5-6kt over the deck we were pretty much doing about 6.5kns from hoist to drop but we were certainly paying more attention when the wind picked up. I wish I had done it sooner to be honest.

Will, I'll have a play with downhaul posistions. I'll try at the mast first but being in the Bristol Channel you're pretty much guaranteed a beat and a run so I imagine I'll be using the spinakker a lot more.

Mr Clanger, I'll give the tugman's hitch a go, the only worry is releasing it pronto but I suppose I need to try it.

I think I need to have a look at other people's boats, how they are setup, even better crew on some races and see what others are doing but being at the end of the season it may be one for next year.

 

[Major_Clanger]

Dan, 70m2. It was very light and we had zero apparent wind whilst flying at first and I dropped it at 5-6kt over the deck we were pretty much doing about 6.5kns from hoist to drop but we were certainly paying more attention when the wind picked up. I wish I had done it sooner to be honest.

Will, I'll have a play with downhaul posistions. I'll try at the mast first but being in the Bristol Channel you're pretty much guaranteed a beat and a run so I imagine I'll be using the spinakker a lot more.

Mr Clanger, I'll give the tugman's hitch a go, the only worry is releasing it pronto but I suppose I need to try it.

I think I need to have a look at other people's boats, how they are setup, even better crew on some races and see what others are doing but being at the end of the season it may be one for next year.

Tugman's hitch is very quick to let go (it had to be for it's original purpose of securing lighters, some tows) and I always use it for the spinnaker sheets when they're not being played.

If you find yourself on the east coast then you'd be welcome to come out for a day. In the water for another month.......

 

[lw395]

I would get some big cam cleats, on the vertical part of the coaming so you can take the guy straight down into it where it leads off the winch.
Or another old-type fixed cleat.

But the cam cleat would enable you to cleat with your foot or knee while sheeting with one hand.
The best would be self tailing winches and ideally not under the guardwires.

Where the pole downhaul needs to be depends on where the guy is on the gunwhale.
If you have twinning lines to move that point forwards, you can get by with the downhaul to the mast, as the guy pulls the pole down.
You need to consider in the context of the whole pole system, single ended or double, how you gybe etc.

 

[Greenheart]

750sq ft is Contessa 32 size, quite big enough to need the right kit carefully positioned, I would think.

I'm going to put a couple of camcleats on the centreline, facing port and starboard to cleat my 175sq ft kite and rest my wrists.

I like the tugman's hitch though...I guess the turns around the winch or post, take off most of the tension, so the reversed turn doesn't over-tighten.

 

[neil_s]

I have jamming cleats like yours. I find that they hold well enough without taking a full turn around them. Try a couple of turns around your spinny sheet winch and then straight into the 'V' on the cleat between the winches.

 

[thinwater]

I find the use of horn cleats downstream of a winch to be "quaint" in this day and age. Might as well use hemp rope.

I've had self tailors on my last two boats, and yet I ALWAYS have a cam cleat for the tail. It can be next to it, or it works just as well on the vertical bulkhead (I've had both locations on the same boat); I have a slight preference for the vertical location, as it can be tugged from any direction to release.

Yes, you can work around this with tugboat hitches, and in the case of a self tailer by reversing the last turn, but cam cleats are better. So simple.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fDLXryKUnCE/TOiKaLIzcaI/AAAAAAAAAp4/t5lksWb0LPI/s1600/Winch+and+cam+cleat+low+res.jpg

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Dancrane, I do joke to myself the Ballad is a poor man's Contessa. It does everything a Contessa does but without the 100% Lymington tax. I do agree I need to make sure I get the setup right hence asking on here.. I think I need to try and see what works.

Neil, I agree the cleats do work well but with the spin especially not running stopper knots the last thing I would want is the line to run out and having to sort out a big flag shorthanded.

LW395, I had thought about putting some on the vertical and still might but it may get in the way of the locker hatch when open and where I like to sit... never say never.

Thinwater, I would love some self tailers, for the genoa sheets primary but alas not enough funds and the non tailing seem to have done ok for the last 40 odd years... One day though.

I think I'm going to give the Tugman's hitches a go and after I've flown it a few more times see if I can figure out an alternative if needs be. I quite like using knots and ropework around a boat, it's all part of sailing and working with what you have, keeps the noggin sharp.

 

[lw395]

Can you tie a tugman's hitch safely with one hand?
If you are looking to use the spinnaker singlehanded, you'd be much better off sorting out some gear that works.
There are 3 main controls to a spinnaker. The guy, the sheet, the tiller.
That is in ascending order of needing attention, at least as soon as you get a puff of breeze.

I would thing trying to release a lighterman's hitch while steering in response to a gust or shift could be a very good way to get your fingers trapped. Even a horn cleat is way better than that and can be sorted for very little cash.