Greenheart
Well-Known Member
edit...
...make that persuade...
...make that persuade...
Speed limit in Chi Harbour 8 knots for everyone?
- Thread starter ricky_s
- Start date
Seajet
...
Benjenbav,
I think you've hit the nail on the head; with a bit of understanding what the other chap is up to, or trying to do - any worries are usually dealt with at an early stage.
This is probably why mobo's complain about say dinghies in Chichester more than sailing cruisers do; and conversely why sail types complain about the wake and noise, sometimes high speeds, of power craft.
For this and general understanding I suggested a while ago that it would be a good idea for power boat users to take experience rides in fast dinghies or cruisers, and vice versa; sadly there were few takers, maybe people on both 'sides' ( horrible, outdated term ) were worried about the other lot taking the p, which shouldn't happen - also I don't have access to a fast dinghy myself at the moment, so am unable to push the idea !
'Them and Us' has caused so much pointless wastes of lives and time over the years in all fields of humanity, I do feel the time has come when sail and power can talk reasonably to each other and compare notes ?
I think you've hit the nail on the head; with a bit of understanding what the other chap is up to, or trying to do - any worries are usually dealt with at an early stage.
This is probably why mobo's complain about say dinghies in Chichester more than sailing cruisers do; and conversely why sail types complain about the wake and noise, sometimes high speeds, of power craft.
For this and general understanding I suggested a while ago that it would be a good idea for power boat users to take experience rides in fast dinghies or cruisers, and vice versa; sadly there were few takers, maybe people on both 'sides' ( horrible, outdated term ) were worried about the other lot taking the p, which shouldn't happen - also I don't have access to a fast dinghy myself at the moment, so am unable to push the idea !
'Them and Us' has caused so much pointless wastes of lives and time over the years in all fields of humanity, I do feel the time has come when sail and power can talk reasonably to each other and compare notes ?
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
My mistake
...sorry gents, I really am no techie...I thought I was on the sailboat forum. I have to say though, in relation to "them and us", you motorboatists are a much nicer bunch than the windies. You've got basic good manners. Don't kid yourselves we're the same at heart. (You guys spell better, too).
...sorry gents, I really am no techie...I thought I was on the sailboat forum. I have to say though, in relation to "them and us", you motorboatists are a much nicer bunch than the windies. You've got basic good manners. Don't kid yourselves we're the same at heart. (You guys spell better, too).
Seajet
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dancrane,
your knowledge of people matches your technical understanding; someone suggesting instrumentation on fast dinghies clearly has zero experience or comprehension of what is involved.
As for spelling, I find the general standard on all forums depressing but then again the best engineer I know ( until about now the best in British Aerospace and widely regarded as such, shortly to join the marine sector ) is dyslexic, but that has never been confused with stupidity in his case !
'Don't kid yourselves we're all the same' is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard; while a Nobel Prize for services to humanity is unlikely to be winging its' way towards you, a Darwin Award may well be !
your knowledge of people matches your technical understanding; someone suggesting instrumentation on fast dinghies clearly has zero experience or comprehension of what is involved.
As for spelling, I find the general standard on all forums depressing but then again the best engineer I know ( until about now the best in British Aerospace and widely regarded as such, shortly to join the marine sector ) is dyslexic, but that has never been confused with stupidity in his case !
'Don't kid yourselves we're all the same' is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard; while a Nobel Prize for services to humanity is unlikely to be winging its' way towards you, a Darwin Award may well be !
Searush
Well-Known Member
GPS transponders? In all boats? Can you imagine what the display chart would look like with a mixed racing fleet approaching the weather mark?
It would need to be seriously waterproof as dinghies spend a lot of time upside down. Dinghies also have no power whatsoever & are frequently left unused for months, often many years - so it will need an internal power source that will stand that sort of abuse & still be waterproof. Plus there are several million small boats around - each will need to be seperately identified against an owner & an address, so that is a pretty big database to set up & maintain. It's all starting to get silly expensive now isn't it?
It's a bit like the old hoary boat driving licences argument, virtually unpoliceable & therefore a pointless waste of money, but hey-ho, why knock a new idea?
Can you guess why AIS wasn't made compulsory for leisure craft?
It would need to be seriously waterproof as dinghies spend a lot of time upside down. Dinghies also have no power whatsoever & are frequently left unused for months, often many years - so it will need an internal power source that will stand that sort of abuse & still be waterproof. Plus there are several million small boats around - each will need to be seperately identified against an owner & an address, so that is a pretty big database to set up & maintain. It's all starting to get silly expensive now isn't it?
It's a bit like the old hoary boat driving licences argument, virtually unpoliceable & therefore a pointless waste of money, but hey-ho, why knock a new idea?
Can you guess why AIS wasn't made compulsory for leisure craft?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
I have extensive experience in dinghies (including some time in an Osprey), along with experience in cruisers .
I have several trophies for sailing.
None of that experience prevents me from having close encounters in Chichester Harbour.
The only sensible solution is for Chichester Harbour to do what many other Harbours do .............
ban sailing in marked channels.
The boats are towed to the race starts and towed back afterwards.
It works in plenty of other areas, Cowes always tow the dinghies out .
Seajet
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DAKA,
always spoiling for a fight aren't we ?!
If you are that experienced ( rather than a few goes ) you'd know that dinghies cannot be 'banned from channels', how about 'burn all books on sailing because they're evil' while you're at it ?!
A lot of the dinghies which are subject here do not work in big waves, ie outside the harbour; towing them out is a non-starter, I suspect the craft you call dinghies are actually keelboats, and anyway Cowes/the Medina is a narrow restricted strip with commercial traffic etc, not a recreational harbour where sail was going strong well before any sort of combustion engine came along.
Sailing boats require a great deal more skill, motor boats require some knowledge of engines or in sad cases a mobile phone to an engineer; both require a knowledge of seamanship, which I'd suggest is the root of what the OP was getting at.
always spoiling for a fight aren't we ?!
If you are that experienced ( rather than a few goes ) you'd know that dinghies cannot be 'banned from channels', how about 'burn all books on sailing because they're evil' while you're at it ?!
A lot of the dinghies which are subject here do not work in big waves, ie outside the harbour; towing them out is a non-starter, I suspect the craft you call dinghies are actually keelboats, and anyway Cowes/the Medina is a narrow restricted strip with commercial traffic etc, not a recreational harbour where sail was going strong well before any sort of combustion engine came along.
Sailing boats require a great deal more skill, motor boats require some knowledge of engines or in sad cases a mobile phone to an engineer; both require a knowledge of seamanship, which I'd suggest is the root of what the OP was getting at.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
reply in orange as I dont know how to multi quote
Seajet
...
Daka,
let's both throttle back, I certainly will if you will, I get worried when people write in orange in case it is an indication of blood pressure !
With high performance dinghies like International 14's etc, one is across a nav' channel in the blink of an eye, aiming between transiting boats as if they are standing still; which leads me to another point I suspect very central to this discussion; maybe Race Officers who set the courses could do with some 'education' as to other harbour users' needs.
Bear in mind that ( in my experience a universal constant ) the sort of people who like setting orders and courses, regulations and rules, are exactly the types who will be least receptive to any 'helpful suggestions ' !!!
Thinking about it more as I type, I think this - educating race officers - is the key to the whole thing.
I know that even my club, less serious about dinghy racing than some of the more 'up themselves' examples, holds evening chats for race organisers; as this is exactly the sort of thing I avoid like the plague, I don't know how much 'seamanship and consideration' is involved, I suspect this will decrease as tactics come to the fore in keener outfits...
I know someone in the RYA, will mention this and will get back to you and this forum if I get an answer.
This area of what may be called 'traffic conflict' and orders as to where to sail is one of the strongest reasons why I have had, or sailed in a lot of high performance dinghies, ( Scorpion, Osprey, Dart 18, Fireball, International 14's, Sharpies, 505's etc ) but only race in the winter - so as to have a rescue boat handy, and it's a bit pointless otherwise in the grey & cold, often low winds - or if someone with more money than sense offers me the chance to sail on 'exotic' racing jobs; given the chance I sail fast, but where I want to go, not round and round or across nav' channels, which of course also means cutting across shallows...
let's both throttle back, I certainly will if you will, I get worried when people write in orange in case it is an indication of blood pressure !
With high performance dinghies like International 14's etc, one is across a nav' channel in the blink of an eye, aiming between transiting boats as if they are standing still; which leads me to another point I suspect very central to this discussion; maybe Race Officers who set the courses could do with some 'education' as to other harbour users' needs.
Bear in mind that ( in my experience a universal constant ) the sort of people who like setting orders and courses, regulations and rules, are exactly the types who will be least receptive to any 'helpful suggestions ' !!!
Thinking about it more as I type, I think this - educating race officers - is the key to the whole thing.
I know that even my club, less serious about dinghy racing than some of the more 'up themselves' examples, holds evening chats for race organisers; as this is exactly the sort of thing I avoid like the plague, I don't know how much 'seamanship and consideration' is involved, I suspect this will decrease as tactics come to the fore in keener outfits...
I know someone in the RYA, will mention this and will get back to you and this forum if I get an answer.
This area of what may be called 'traffic conflict' and orders as to where to sail is one of the strongest reasons why I have had, or sailed in a lot of high performance dinghies, ( Scorpion, Osprey, Dart 18, Fireball, International 14's, Sharpies, 505's etc ) but only race in the winter - so as to have a rescue boat handy, and it's a bit pointless otherwise in the grey & cold, often low winds - or if someone with more money than sense offers me the chance to sail on 'exotic' racing jobs; given the chance I sail fast, but where I want to go, not round and round or across nav' channels, which of course also means cutting across shallows...
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Searush (do all you chaps have to have sea-names?), you are right, it would be very costly. Presumably cheaper though, as time passes and tech grows less 'space-age'. And, saving the cost that follows accidents/recovery would be significant. And it wouldn't be retro-fitted, any more than airbags are put into old cars. Generally the latest boats are fastest and most in need of taming. But you and I've disagreed there before; I quit.
"Seajet"? In spite of your airborne name and background, you remind me of Geoffrey Howe...I've been savaged by a dead sheep. I had been trying to pay you a small compliment.
I'd think the technology will get cleverer...clever enough for instance, so that only in use , and then maybe just where potentially problematic proximity sets bells ringing, will the transponder operate; at other times passive, so no dinghy parks full of blips. I don't believe there are sound manufacturing reasons why it wouldn't work. Presuming it won't or couldn't be justified is standing in the way of advance. Never mind, eh? No doubt some other nation will show us the way...
"Seajet"? In spite of your airborne name and background, you remind me of Geoffrey Howe...I've been savaged by a dead sheep. I had been trying to pay you a small compliment.
I'd think the technology will get cleverer...clever enough for instance, so that only in use , and then maybe just where potentially problematic proximity sets bells ringing, will the transponder operate; at other times passive, so no dinghy parks full of blips. I don't believe there are sound manufacturing reasons why it wouldn't work. Presuming it won't or couldn't be justified is standing in the way of advance. Never mind, eh? No doubt some other nation will show us the way...
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gjgm
Well-Known Member
Thing is , Seajet, that one bad apple...
Or in my experience of Chi harbour, quite a few.
I genuinely think I have done everything I could.. go slow, stop, even go in reverse.. anything to give way to some of these dinghies. Still, I have got shouted at, rammed,sworn at- and every single occasion the dinghy hasnt even spotted me. I mean, you think it really shouldnt be hard to spot a mobo,I havent just dropped out of the sky, ffs.
In the years I was based at Northney I never had a single issue with a mobo, but there are some complete a**es in dinghies. If you are going to speed along at 10-20knots,at least look where the hell you are helming.
Or in my experience of Chi harbour, quite a few.
I genuinely think I have done everything I could.. go slow, stop, even go in reverse.. anything to give way to some of these dinghies. Still, I have got shouted at, rammed,sworn at- and every single occasion the dinghy hasnt even spotted me. I mean, you think it really shouldnt be hard to spot a mobo,I havent just dropped out of the sky, ffs.
In the years I was based at Northney I never had a single issue with a mobo, but there are some complete a**es in dinghies. If you are going to speed along at 10-20knots,at least look where the hell you are helming.
Seajet
...
Dancrane,
as far as 'all chaps having names with 'sea', I can guess at Searushes' choice, I chose my name here after the nickname of the Sea Harrier I was proud to work with - the Navy sometimes call it the SHAR, but to those on the development team like me and RN pilots closely associated it will always be the Seajet; my 'avatar' is a shot I took of legendary Harrier Chief Test Pilot John Farley going past Dunsfold's ATC tower for me at 350-400 knots, 30' without blinking an eyelid; he did this for me 4 times as my Hasselblad camera only gave 1 shot per pass !
I'm afraid it will be a very long time indeed before instrumentation is used on racing dinghies; for a start, the kit would have to be proven and stipulated in the class rules for a particular design; on keen racing dinghies, weight is at such a premium that the sheets ( primary sail control ropes ) are kept so thin and lightweight that it is impossible to sail in any strength of wind without gloves !
I happened to spend a bit of time on fighter aircraft instruments, and was around with better qualified people on such kit a good deal more; to have a meaningful speed / position readout on a racing dinghy by a hull mounted transducer is a complete non-starter, because of the drastic speed range, vulnerability, etc; to have an AIS style transponder ( let alone the data recorders you seem to allude to ! ) would require something like a reliable solar power source.
How does one achieve this when the rig is obviously prone to being at all angles, including 180 inverted, and anything mounted lower down will be covered in spray or even solid water a lot of the time ?
There have been attempts to instrument dinghies, but apart from record specials they have all disappeared into File 13...
If really interested in what's involved - and this goes for anyone reading here - please PM me and I will do my best to get you a suitable 'experience ride'.
as far as 'all chaps having names with 'sea', I can guess at Searushes' choice, I chose my name here after the nickname of the Sea Harrier I was proud to work with - the Navy sometimes call it the SHAR, but to those on the development team like me and RN pilots closely associated it will always be the Seajet; my 'avatar' is a shot I took of legendary Harrier Chief Test Pilot John Farley going past Dunsfold's ATC tower for me at 350-400 knots, 30' without blinking an eyelid; he did this for me 4 times as my Hasselblad camera only gave 1 shot per pass !
I'm afraid it will be a very long time indeed before instrumentation is used on racing dinghies; for a start, the kit would have to be proven and stipulated in the class rules for a particular design; on keen racing dinghies, weight is at such a premium that the sheets ( primary sail control ropes ) are kept so thin and lightweight that it is impossible to sail in any strength of wind without gloves !
I happened to spend a bit of time on fighter aircraft instruments, and was around with better qualified people on such kit a good deal more; to have a meaningful speed / position readout on a racing dinghy by a hull mounted transducer is a complete non-starter, because of the drastic speed range, vulnerability, etc; to have an AIS style transponder ( let alone the data recorders you seem to allude to ! ) would require something like a reliable solar power source.
How does one achieve this when the rig is obviously prone to being at all angles, including 180 inverted, and anything mounted lower down will be covered in spray or even solid water a lot of the time ?
There have been attempts to instrument dinghies, but apart from record specials they have all disappeared into File 13...
If really interested in what's involved - and this goes for anyone reading here - please PM me and I will do my best to get you a suitable 'experience ride'.
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Andrew_Fanner
Well-Known Member
>>>
I'm afraid it will be a very long time indeed before instrumentation is used on racing dinghies; for a start, the kit would have to be proven and stipulated in the class rules for a particular design; on keen racing dinghies
>>>
Handheld GPS?
I'm afraid it will be a very long time indeed before instrumentation is used on racing dinghies; for a start, the kit would have to be proven and stipulated in the class rules for a particular design; on keen racing dinghies
>>>
Handheld GPS?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Daka,
let's both throttle back, I certainly will if you will, I get worried when people write in orange in case it is an indication of blood pressure !
the only reason for the colour is, I havent found out how to multi quote, dont worry about the blood pressure , Im only a young un
With high performance dinghies like International 14's etc, one is across a nav' channel in the blink of an eye, aiming between transiting boats as if they are standing still; which leads me to another point I suspect very central to this discussion; maybe Race Officers who set the courses could do with some 'education' as to other harbour users' needs.
Bear in mind that ( in my experience a universal constant ) the sort of people who like setting orders and courses, regulations and rules, are exactly the types who will be least receptive to any 'helpful suggestions ' !!!
Thinking about it more as I type, I think this - educating race officers - is the key to the whole thing.
Thats an excellent idea
I know that even my club, less serious about dinghy racing than some of the more 'up themselves' examples, holds evening chats for race organisers; as this is exactly the sort of thing I avoid like the plague, I don't know how much 'seamanship and consideration' is involved, I suspect this will decrease as tactics come to the fore in keener outfits...
I know someone in the RYA, will mention this and will get back to you and this forum if I get an answer.
This area of what may be called 'traffic conflict' and orders as to where to sail is one of the strongest reasons why I have had, or sailed in a lot of high performance dinghies, ( Scorpion, Osprey, Dart 18, Fireball, International 14's, Sharpies, 505's etc ) but only race in the winter - so as to have a rescue boat handy, and it's a bit pointless otherwise in the grey & cold, often low winds - or if someone with more money than sense offers me the chance to sail on 'exotic' racing jobs; given the chance I sail fast, but where I want to go, not round and round or across nav' channels, which of course also means cutting across shallows...
Dont you think the way to go is with compulsory training ?
Each club should be responsible for the idiot they let launch at their slipway and each club should have a minimum training program in place to ensure each skipper understands the harbour byelaws beyond
' power gives way to sail '
Infringements should reflect on the club who can have launching rights removed (same applies to marinas launching jet skis)
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
In that case...
Thank you, Seajet; comparisons with fat old Thatcherite minister, withdrawn. Maybe, as I'm glad to be able to ask someone who truly knows, you can tell me what those chip-things are, that can be clipped permanently onto a pet, so the critter can be located when lost? Not so ferociously expensive, and presumably just as prone to the sudden movement of the "vessel"? Does the transponder really have to be in only one position, to broadcast its blip?
My years sailing showed me clearly that complex electrics in a dinghy aren't much welcome; please don't think I needed telling. I was supposing that a marginally cleverer version of the tiny thing one clips onto the cat's ear, would be simple and solid enough to put up with sailing rough and tumble, whilst helpfully keeping crews aware of their neighbours' whereabouts on the water.
There's the same sort of gadget to help twits find their cars in carparks. Granted their range must be limited, but if collisions are the thing we'd like to prevent, they'd only need to be detected by another vessel in the vicinity.
I'm only hoping for a satisfactory solution. I'm unlikely to need it myself, my dinghy doesn't seem to like going over five knots...
Thank you, Seajet; comparisons with fat old Thatcherite minister, withdrawn. Maybe, as I'm glad to be able to ask someone who truly knows, you can tell me what those chip-things are, that can be clipped permanently onto a pet, so the critter can be located when lost? Not so ferociously expensive, and presumably just as prone to the sudden movement of the "vessel"? Does the transponder really have to be in only one position, to broadcast its blip?
My years sailing showed me clearly that complex electrics in a dinghy aren't much welcome; please don't think I needed telling. I was supposing that a marginally cleverer version of the tiny thing one clips onto the cat's ear, would be simple and solid enough to put up with sailing rough and tumble, whilst helpfully keeping crews aware of their neighbours' whereabouts on the water.
There's the same sort of gadget to help twits find their cars in carparks. Granted their range must be limited, but if collisions are the thing we'd like to prevent, they'd only need to be detected by another vessel in the vicinity.
I'm only hoping for a satisfactory solution. I'm unlikely to need it myself, my dinghy doesn't seem to like going over five knots...
Seajet
...
More legislation and rules
Daka,
I'd think we all agree we could well do without any more rules and regulations; it's what we go to sea to get away from !
Educate yes, legislate No.
That happens to be the RYA line as well, though I am nothing to do with them apart from them melding with BORG when they - RYA - agreed to accept our help in P.R. over the Studland Bay anchoring issue ( which BTW is not over yet, things seem to be going well but watch this space, I have quite a humurous thing to relate to power boat users regarding this but cannot divulge at this stage ).
I might point out that if people in charge of 'lethal weapon' type craft were to be subject to legislation, power craft would be victims long before any sailing boats, for good reason; and I'm afraid the mental set-up of people who think they can drive boats just like an unrestricted sports car would come into it too; I am NOT saying that applies to all power craft users, it's just that the impact - in various ways - made by such idiots is hard to ignore.
I find it hard to believe anyone has so much bad luck that they get repeatedly badly treated, near missed, 'rammed' ?! etc, I am reminded of a berk I once knew who complained of the number of car and - sail - boat crashes he'd endured, all without doubt his own fault, I know as I was passenger in some of the car accidents !
Instrumentation and black boxes ( as we all probably know, and I have sad experience of, actually dayglo orange ) are a complete red herring; education to ALL concerned is the answer so that we may understand each other better, I repeat I will try to find a slot on a fast sailing boat for anyone interested.
Daka,
I'd think we all agree we could well do without any more rules and regulations; it's what we go to sea to get away from !
Educate yes, legislate No.
That happens to be the RYA line as well, though I am nothing to do with them apart from them melding with BORG when they - RYA - agreed to accept our help in P.R. over the Studland Bay anchoring issue ( which BTW is not over yet, things seem to be going well but watch this space, I have quite a humurous thing to relate to power boat users regarding this but cannot divulge at this stage ).
I might point out that if people in charge of 'lethal weapon' type craft were to be subject to legislation, power craft would be victims long before any sailing boats, for good reason; and I'm afraid the mental set-up of people who think they can drive boats just like an unrestricted sports car would come into it too; I am NOT saying that applies to all power craft users, it's just that the impact - in various ways - made by such idiots is hard to ignore.
I find it hard to believe anyone has so much bad luck that they get repeatedly badly treated, near missed, 'rammed' ?! etc, I am reminded of a berk I once knew who complained of the number of car and - sail - boat crashes he'd endured, all without doubt his own fault, I know as I was passenger in some of the car accidents !
Instrumentation and black boxes ( as we all probably know, and I have sad experience of, actually dayglo orange ) are a complete red herring; education to ALL concerned is the answer so that we may understand each other better, I repeat I will try to find a slot on a fast sailing boat for anyone interested.
flaming
Well-Known Member
That's a noble idea, but one I think doomed to failure sadly.
As has been said already the skill level taken to sail something like a 49er, I14 etc quickly is rather high, and a simple joyride by a non sailor is not, IMHO, going to give an accurate impression of the situation. In fact I suspect that they'd be left with the impression of an unguided missile!
There are prats in all walks of life. I have tales of top class prattery I've witnessed from racers, dinghies, cruisers, Mobos and PWCs in roughly equal measures. But the big difference between a 49er, moth etc doing 20 knots in Chichester harbour, and a MOBO or PWC doing the same is that you can be sure that anyone doing those speeds in a dinghy isn't on their first ever trip...
Doesn't necessarily mean they're not a prat though.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Thank you for such a sensible post, if only we can get the message across to those who matter, as we are both in total agreement
.........if anyone wants to sail they should be out at sea and not p1 55ing around in main harbour channels .
you have hit the nail on the head with that statement
If anyone wants to get away from harbour bylaws and harbour restrictions they should indeed head for the sea but there is the problem, thats all we are trying to do when pilocks tack infront of us and set races courses who are already under regulations (col regs) but have no idea how to apply them.
Seajet
...
Flaming,
sadly I think you're right on all counts ! ( except PWC's exhibit a far higher level of buffoonery than all the rest combined ).
The offer of trying to organise a sail remains open though, it must have a positive effect to some degree.
sadly I think you're right on all counts ! ( except PWC's exhibit a far higher level of buffoonery than all the rest combined ).
The offer of trying to organise a sail remains open though, it must have a positive effect to some degree.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Yes I was a bit surprised at that invitation too, I have huge confidence in my own sailing abilities but I wouldnt be safe in a f5 , international 14 in Chichester harbour
I am going to be bold and state that NO ONE is safe in that boat in chichester harbour in a F5 and above, it should be the clubs responsibility to stop them launching in such conditions and even in F2-4 make sure they are back in before the afternoon sea breeze kicks in.