Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Given that this thread is dream-land, wouldn't sir prefer a slightly bigger hull, to give full headroom without an ugly or unaerodynamic coachroof?
Sounds a very tidy little vessel though.
Specify your dream-boat (DON'T JUST NAME A DESIGN WHICH IS ALREADY OUT THERE)
- Thread starter Greenheart
- Start date
Given that this thread is dream-land, wouldn't sir prefer a slightly bigger hull, to give full headroom without an ugly or unaerodynamic coachroof?
Sounds a very tidy little vessel though.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Can you tell us what it is, without naming yards/designers/manufacturers?
I find that lots of people (including myself, I regret) put most marques in positive or negative pigeon-holes, even though a detailed description of the specific design might well have led the listener to enthuse or dismiss, contrary to their usual established preferences...
...not really fair to whitewash all examples of certain people's work, or anticipate the awfulness of others' labours without due consideration. Hence I asked for everyone's ideal type rather than any particular existing model.
Imagine if we had to describe our cars without any mention of builder or designer. Might be interesting if motors' prestige related not to badge-snobbery, but to the generally-accepted characteristics of each type.
I believe I'm straying from whatever point I was making...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Sounds like my Hanse 315
doug748
Well-Known Member
I find 32 feet handy at close quarters and, as a short arsee, 6 foot headroom is more than enough.
However, it would be churlish to turn down your kind offer, put me down for 34 foot
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I am surprised by some of the suggestions on here.
Like all thing, the answer depends on lots of factors.
Assuming we are talking about a dream OFFSHORE yacht - for ocean passage making then lets think about length overall first.
Unless you are going to employ crew and have all the hassle that entails then a boat big enough to make some sort of serious passage speeds means the longer the better. But longer also means that it becomes a pain for short handed sailing. Many people think that 42-45 feet is quite long enough for short handed sailing. Of course you can sail 100' by yourself, but it becomes a bit of a serious challenge when it comes to sail handling and not many people are going to suggest one has electric winches and relies on the power always being there... Furthermore if you go much bigger than 45 feet it severely limits where you can get into in termns of small boat cruising. So in my book that means a yacht of max 45 feet.
This also squares with keel depth because whether you have long or short fin, full keel or canting keel etc, most people go cruising to visit places. Many many harbours ad cruising grounds are out of bounds to you if your draught is much more than a couple of metres. So although you can have a deep fin keel for all that upwind efficiency the reality is that a moderate fin (or long) keel is much more practical and allows you a greater choice of places to go.
So for me the ideal yacht starts with a few constraints before one even thinks about hull design, mono vs multihull, rig and accommodation.
For what its worth I think that the fancy rigs on tall ships are wonderful to look at - and to go sailing on when someone else does the maintenance and upkeep, but for practical sailing a conventional single or two masted modern rig with modern materials and sail handling is hard to beat.
I will also put in a bid for a deck saloon and a decent generator that is silent so that you can have air-con when its really hot and sticky. I was on a super-yacht once where the deck saloon had sliding vertical windows on motors (They were very heavy toughened/laminate glass) and you could put them down for the true 'open cockpit/saloon' experience, but slide them up for heating or air-con when the climate didn't quite suit.
A last thought - I would also like to find room on my 45 footer for a washing machine and dryer. Naturally with the silent generator there will be a decent water maker. If you are going to live aboard you might as well live in comfort.
I now realise some might think I have contradicted my assumptions about power, but I don't believe so. Power winches would be necessary for the operation of a very large boat with minimal crew, but you could still sail the 45 footer with no power. You'd just not get your washing done...
Like all thing, the answer depends on lots of factors.
Assuming we are talking about a dream OFFSHORE yacht - for ocean passage making then lets think about length overall first.
Unless you are going to employ crew and have all the hassle that entails then a boat big enough to make some sort of serious passage speeds means the longer the better. But longer also means that it becomes a pain for short handed sailing. Many people think that 42-45 feet is quite long enough for short handed sailing. Of course you can sail 100' by yourself, but it becomes a bit of a serious challenge when it comes to sail handling and not many people are going to suggest one has electric winches and relies on the power always being there... Furthermore if you go much bigger than 45 feet it severely limits where you can get into in termns of small boat cruising. So in my book that means a yacht of max 45 feet.
This also squares with keel depth because whether you have long or short fin, full keel or canting keel etc, most people go cruising to visit places. Many many harbours ad cruising grounds are out of bounds to you if your draught is much more than a couple of metres. So although you can have a deep fin keel for all that upwind efficiency the reality is that a moderate fin (or long) keel is much more practical and allows you a greater choice of places to go.
So for me the ideal yacht starts with a few constraints before one even thinks about hull design, mono vs multihull, rig and accommodation.
For what its worth I think that the fancy rigs on tall ships are wonderful to look at - and to go sailing on when someone else does the maintenance and upkeep, but for practical sailing a conventional single or two masted modern rig with modern materials and sail handling is hard to beat.
I will also put in a bid for a deck saloon and a decent generator that is silent so that you can have air-con when its really hot and sticky. I was on a super-yacht once where the deck saloon had sliding vertical windows on motors (They were very heavy toughened/laminate glass) and you could put them down for the true 'open cockpit/saloon' experience, but slide them up for heating or air-con when the climate didn't quite suit.
A last thought - I would also like to find room on my 45 footer for a washing machine and dryer. Naturally with the silent generator there will be a decent water maker. If you are going to live aboard you might as well live in comfort.
I now realise some might think I have contradicted my assumptions about power, but I don't believe so. Power winches would be necessary for the operation of a very large boat with minimal crew, but you could still sail the 45 footer with no power. You'd just not get your washing done...
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onesea
Well-Known Member
It is a common solution on many large vessels, although it is not a cheap solution. Normally one looked to where the design has a weakness in stability or a need to keep displacement down.
Although from what I hear about the Stavros compared to here predecessors, sailing ability was not as high on her design priority...
Although in honesty I am biased have not sailed on the Stavros, but know some people who sailed both...
On the other hand if money was no object I think I would get the lines for the the Sir Winston Churchill from Camper & Nicholson...
I wonder how many paid hands I would really need 3 or 4? and what a way to travel...
prv
Well-Known Member
I think that's fair comment. She does about yacht speeds, whereas given the waterline length you'd think she'd go a lot faster.
That said, the experience is very different from sailing a yacht, and the speed or lack of it is less noticeable. You don't trim sails, your attention tends to be more inside the ship, and what's going past is mere scenery unless you happen to be one of the lookouts.
Pete
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
The aluminium / steel mixture is a well proven technology. I think DuPont released their first bi-metal strips to the commercial market into the early eighties.
The stability requirement is interesting and probably more of an issue with small boats than larger yachts and training ships; Up to the arrival of computer stability software, stability analysis was very, very time consuming. Boats of 'normal form' were generally assumed to be 'normally stable'. However in the light of the post Fastnet '79 debates, we became increasingly inquisitive about the stability of the steel yachts we built, especially as there was an increasing demand from the market for greater beam and shallower draft. So by the mid eighties, our long winded manual calculations convinced us that we should be using composite cabin tops and aluminium cockpits on the steel hulls (bolted on gaskets) together with only lead ballast. The weight savings were incredible and quite high above the waterline and the joints proved very stable and reliable.
However with the arrival of MacHydro software (running slowly on a MacClassic) in the very early 90's, our investigations became so much more thorough and less intuitive. It was obvious that even those weight savings weren't enough so we started to use aluminium for everything inboard and upwards of a line about 40mm inboard of the deck edge, using a Deltacouple. This allowed the deck edge to be a steel angle 'beam' and made welding the stainless steel bases for the lifeline stantions and mooring cleats really easy.
Although we were really happy with the boats and the stability was as good as any comparable designs, I woke up one night and thought 'why are we going to all the effort to combine the two materials? Is the steel hull really a benefit?" And from that moment on (mid 90s) we never offered and no one has ever asked for a steel boat of any sort. Aluminium allows a cleaner building yard, the blasting requirements were more environmentally friendly and the boats were just 'better'.
When I see steel boats less that 45ft LOA with steel decks, cockpits, etc, especially where they have been both 'overbuilt for safety' and have used a low density ballast such as concrete and steel punchings, I do wonder about their stability.
The stability requirement is interesting and probably more of an issue with small boats than larger yachts and training ships; Up to the arrival of computer stability software, stability analysis was very, very time consuming. Boats of 'normal form' were generally assumed to be 'normally stable'. However in the light of the post Fastnet '79 debates, we became increasingly inquisitive about the stability of the steel yachts we built, especially as there was an increasing demand from the market for greater beam and shallower draft. So by the mid eighties, our long winded manual calculations convinced us that we should be using composite cabin tops and aluminium cockpits on the steel hulls (bolted on gaskets) together with only lead ballast. The weight savings were incredible and quite high above the waterline and the joints proved very stable and reliable.
However with the arrival of MacHydro software (running slowly on a MacClassic) in the very early 90's, our investigations became so much more thorough and less intuitive. It was obvious that even those weight savings weren't enough so we started to use aluminium for everything inboard and upwards of a line about 40mm inboard of the deck edge, using a Deltacouple. This allowed the deck edge to be a steel angle 'beam' and made welding the stainless steel bases for the lifeline stantions and mooring cleats really easy.
Although we were really happy with the boats and the stability was as good as any comparable designs, I woke up one night and thought 'why are we going to all the effort to combine the two materials? Is the steel hull really a benefit?" And from that moment on (mid 90s) we never offered and no one has ever asked for a steel boat of any sort. Aluminium allows a cleaner building yard, the blasting requirements were more environmentally friendly and the boats were just 'better'.
When I see steel boats less that 45ft LOA with steel decks, cockpits, etc, especially where they have been both 'overbuilt for safety' and have used a low density ballast such as concrete and steel punchings, I do wonder about their stability.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Dan, you do not have to dream any more - after lofting the plans 13 years ago and setting up the keel on the beach at Carlisle Bay here in Barbados, your dream boat is almost complete and will be launched on a custom built trailer on Sunday 21st April.
She is just over 100' on deck, and displaces almost 100 tonnes. She has a 35 tonne cargo hold amidships, with forepeak accomodation for the crew, a small chart room / deck house, and a larger deckhouse which will house the saloon and the skipper's cabin.
Her owner / builder Ian has created this nice website about her - http://www.schoonerruth.com/
She was designed by Tom Colvin, and there is a brief mention of her on his website here - http://www.thomasecolvin.com/fish schooners.htm
I have various photos of her under construction over the years; I just have to sort them out and upload them to my Photobucket, and will then post them on here.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
She's a beauty. I hope there'll be long youtube videos, full of her.
Nice to know, that style is still a coveted one, and even deemed practical commercially.
Nice to know, that style is still a coveted one, and even deemed practical commercially.
tokoloshe
Well-Known Member
My dream crew?
['m going back to sleep.
['m going back to sleep.
sighmoon
Well-Known Member
I once saw a guy in a marina standing on a small step ladder to shackle on his mainsail. I'd like to watch him doing that in a chop. For that reason, and the reasons John Morris stated, I think 45 foot max, and about 12 foot wide.
I'd like a planing, lifting keel hull, with water ballast on a fold- out out rigger. To save pumping, the water gets to the windward outrigger by some sort of rapid capilary action mechanism, which hasn't been invented yet.
There would be a raised saloon, to take in the views, and reduce the AVS.
The boat would be really light - I reckonwith carbon fibre, 1.5 tonnes is a reasonable figure for the hull and deck, plus a tonne or so of lead ballast on a steel keel, 4m down (until the keel is raised). Two transom hung rudders would also lift clear, so I can go right up the beach.
I'd like a planing, lifting keel hull, with water ballast on a fold- out out rigger. To save pumping, the water gets to the windward outrigger by some sort of rapid capilary action mechanism, which hasn't been invented yet.
There would be a raised saloon, to take in the views, and reduce the AVS.
The boat would be really light - I reckonwith carbon fibre, 1.5 tonnes is a reasonable figure for the hull and deck, plus a tonne or so of lead ballast on a steel keel, 4m down (until the keel is raised). Two transom hung rudders would also lift clear, so I can go right up the beach.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Figaro 11 series!!
alphonsus
New Member
I live on the Irish Sea and do a lot of sailing up the Scottish west coast, often short-handed, so my dream boat would be:
34’±3 deck-saloon of the lower-profile variety (Moody Eclipse not LM style), twin wheel (not wheel and tiller) combination, internal autopilot.
Boom reefing (or maybe in-mast), possibly self-tacking gib just to make life easier. Sloop, not ketch (less to play with when short-handed)
Two decent-sized double cabins, decent sized heads with separate (adjoining) shower compartment. Third cabin optional extra.
Mod-cons: Heating (everywhere!). 12/240V side-loading fridge, freezer, microwave, TV, plenty of USB points. TV (doubling as monitor for) computer (entertainment and navigation purposes)
The one thing I can’t make my mind up about is: fin or bilge keel.
34’±3 deck-saloon of the lower-profile variety (Moody Eclipse not LM style), twin wheel (not wheel and tiller) combination, internal autopilot.
Boom reefing (or maybe in-mast), possibly self-tacking gib just to make life easier. Sloop, not ketch (less to play with when short-handed)
Two decent-sized double cabins, decent sized heads with separate (adjoining) shower compartment. Third cabin optional extra.
Mod-cons: Heating (everywhere!). 12/240V side-loading fridge, freezer, microwave, TV, plenty of USB points. TV (doubling as monitor for) computer (entertainment and navigation purposes)
The one thing I can’t make my mind up about is: fin or bilge keel.