Spain - Customs - Help!

Grehan

Grehan

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 Jun 2001
Messages
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Location
Inland France + Oxon.
www.french-waterways.com
I'm in the UK for a few weeks but my wife's in Spain (Marbella).
The Spanish Customs have descended on the harbour and issued requests to inspect papers (which we have, no problem there, as such) to all and sundry. However we, like other people have been moored there for some while (e.g a year or more). We have a house nearby so haven't necessarily been living aboard all that time, but the boat has been in Spanish waters and tied up in a Spanish marina for more than the formal X months (however many months that is). Obviously we (and others) are worried about potential fines, taxes, etc etc.

Because my wife was not on the boat or even living aboard at the time the officers visited, she got a phone call, then a fax asking for her to visit their offices with the ship's papers. She's bought some time, so this tricky interview has not yet taken place.

Any advice, information, benefits of experience . . would be gratefully received.
PM if you wish.

Sincere thanks
 
All depends on your status.Iam a resident with residecy card.I have been told that to keep a boat in Spain I have one month from entering spanish waters to put in process the reflagging of the boat and have it inspected and pay appropiate fees.As a non resident you have something in the region of 180 days then you are liable forsome kind of tax,not sure about this bit.
 
What we take for freedom of movement does not really apply,there are controls probably in all eu states,they mean freedom for capital to move about but for actual people ...no way jose!Best bet go to Spanish Embassy in London and get the info from horses mouth,there are too many stories about what is what.
 
If you have Spanish "residencia" then you are (supposedly) obliged to reflag your British flagged boat within the statutory 183 days of "arriving" in Spain. The Spanish will treat your boat as an item of "wealth" that you are bringing/have brought into Spain and will require a one off "wealth tax" payment based on the current value of the boat. (It's a %age based on the value of the boat).

If you are non-residencia then the boat can remain UK flagged but you are then liable for what is known as G5 (after the 183 days). Basically you have a UK asset that is taking up space in Spain, albeit on water, and the Spanish want their pound of flesh. in the form of this tax. (For a boat taking up a 15 x 5m berth this is in the region of 70€'s a month)

Having said all that then it can depend in what area you are and as to how vigourously these rules are enforced. It seems like you have a purge going on - DO NOT UPSET OR ARGUE WITH THE AUTHORITIES - it will only make it worse!!!

www.seraph-sailing.com
 
The important issue is not the boat - it is you. You can travel to and from Spain as often as you like as a tourist but if you move to Spain to live there you become subject to Spanish laws and taxes. One of those laws is that you must re-flag your boat as Spanish.

So what constitutes 'moving to Spain to live there?' It is not entirely straight forward (what is?) but in simple terms, if you are in the same place in Spain for more than six months a year you could be deemed to have moved in and if you are there for more than six continuous months per year you will most certainly be deemed to have moved in. Having a house there as well as a boat will add greatly to the authorities' argument that you are now a Spanish resident.
 
There was newes of a raid on yachts to pay some kind of taxa while back.As I mentioned in my cautionary tale in the Lounge they arwe not so easy going as a few years back.
 
This is very interesting to us as we are in the process of buying a boat here in Ibiza, but it is registered in the Canary Islands, and to my knowledge the current owner hasn't paid any tax here. Our solicitor is looking into the tax situation for us. I also found out that if a boat is pre 1985 and can prove that it was in European waters before 31/12/92 then it is exempt from VAT. Spanish VAT is calculated on age, an assesor is sent to inspect the boat and will determine how much VAT is due.
 
Nomad, to give you some encouragement, we know a couple who have just paid Spanish vat in Almerimar. Their boat is late '80's built in Taiwan, bought in USA. They have been sailing it out of the EU fro the past 15 years.

The vat assessment was based on a value of 12k euro which, in turn, was based on the age of the boat (not market value). They paid 2,300 euro vat. They have just sold the boat (with its new vat certificate) for 140k euro!
 
Thanks, thats very reassuring to hear. You automatically think that the VAT man is going to get as much as he can i.e. based on market value. Well done to your friends, it sounds like a couple of thousand euros well spent on their part.
 
Firstly, No, I have no first-hand knowledge of anyone who has been taxed on a UK flagged yacht, and there are plenty here in Almerimar, several belonging to people who have local flats or houses and who are for all practical purposes resident in Spain (though several keep UK tax, Driving Licence, car, address, etc.).

We would dearly like to know the chapter and verse on this ourselves as we are planning to come back to Almerimar next winter (6 months in Spain and 6 months elsewhere in the Med) but getting chapter and verse on these things is like trying to grasp mercury. There is no shortage of opinions and advice but when push comes to shove, nobody can point you to any actual rules. There must be some rules and you would imagine that the Cruising Association or the RYA would have obtained a legal opinion **citing the actual laws or regulations concerned** but don't hold your breath.

Spain is a civilised and bureaucratic EU country and the don't just charge taxes willy-nilly. It will all be laid down somewhere - they might not always apply it, but it will be laid down for sure.

As others have said, it must help to keep a low profile and stay 'in' with everyone (which is what you have already been doing, I am certain) but in your case, if they are putting the whole marina under a microscope then you will be examined.

Leaving aside the very long shot that the CA might help (you could ring them, though) you could ask the marina themselves. I stopped and your marina last summer (and saw Grehan but you were not around) - they seemed like a nice crowd and spoke good English.

Very best of luck - please share with us whatever you find out and let us know how it was resolved. I have included my contact details in a PM and don't hesitate to get in touch if I can help or if you'd like to talk it through.
 
There is probably more attention payed to yachts now since 9/11 and its now winter time and the port officials can see who is moored up whereas in the summer there would be a lot of people in transit,Its no good keeping a low profile,I f you want to stay take the bull by the horns and go to the commandancia,you will need a good surveyor and probably a gestoria,its never so bad and its sorted,dont bother to listen to others stories.
 
For myself, I am a British Citizen and have no intention of sailing under the Spanish flag. Neither do I fancy having to take the relevant competence tests in Spanish (though that is an inconvenience and a secondary consideration).

For myself, if the Spanish want to tax me for the privilege of being in their water then, *provided that tax is legal under EU law* I will either pay it or go elsewhere.

But before that decision is made, I expect to know under exactly which Spanish laws or regulations the 'threats' are being made.
 
Thats another point once under spanish flag you will have to have the correct tickets,unless there is a recipricol arrangement with the rya,I doubt it,still worth asking.At the root of all this problem is undwerstanding the legal problems.within europe,they sold the idea of europe with freedom of movement around european countries,but thats if you keep moveing,once you stop for a certain period you are classified as a residents and therefore have to comply with different rules.The Spanish flag is nice and colourful but I am freeer to navigate under the red ensign without a lot of controls.
 
[ QUOTE ]
....they sold the idea of europe with freedom of movement around european countries,but thats if you keep moveing,once you stop for a certain period you are classified as a residents ....

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not convinced that that's necessarily true. I suspect that it is a similar argument to the one in the NHS thread; where are you 'ordinarily resident'? Where you spend most of your time during a phase in your life is not necessarily where you are 'ordinarily resident'. For instance, you may want the warm weather, after an illness with no intention of long-term settlement anywhere other than home (UK). Or you might just want the warm weather without any reason or 'justification' but not intend to stay long-term. The only reason for going 'resident' to another country is if you intend to live there long-term, settle, or work there. I am not convinced that any EU country is permitted to insist that EU visitors become residents if they stay for longer a certain period.

As for the boats, I suspect that they have no right to tax British vessels in this way. But then again, I have nothing but my suspicions to back this up. Though nobody has come up with anything to support their arguments, either /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif</span>
 
I supose from the point of veiw of a country if you stay over a certain periosd of time you are manifestly making use of the facilities of that country so they want you to be registered.Its the same with say pop singer to avoid taxes in acountry they only can visit so many days in one year,maybe its the same idea,There are thousands of retired uk people living on Spain and in France etc.You have tomake the choice to be a resident with all it entails or keep you status as a uk resident an remain the specified time in your adopted second home,so to speak whether its a house or a boat.
 
Sure, we could argue what should or should not be the case but the real question is "what does the law actually say?" Over the last few years I've seen conflicting stories but nothing that leads you to anything that lets you check the facts.

Coming back to Grehan's situation, what would you do? In their position I would try to get the CA and RYA 'on-side' to provide some proper legal backup. If they won't help the cruising yachtsman, who will? It's not the sort of legal case most people can afford to finance out of their own pockets.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Leaving aside the very long shot that the CA might help

[/ QUOTE ] Not a long shot at all. CA have produced a very lengthy document on the subject that is available to members. If you live abroad you only pay 50% subs!
 
Twenty years ago I fell foul of a customs and excise purge,I had to pay a small fine for overstaying time aloted.TheI was given a choice;take the boat out of the country of register it under Spanish Flag.As I was married to a spanish girl we re flagged and I took the spanish sailing exam,The boatwas imported as part of our personal goods and that was that,but we needed help from a gestoria for the paper work.Recently in La Coruña I was told that if I wanted to buy a boat and bring it to Spain and keep it hear I had one month from entering Spain to commence the process.The boat would be valued and a tax of12% levied,this on boats over 7.5 mtres.Apart from that the boat would be subject to an inspection on condition etc.I was quoted 450 euros for this by an independent surveyor,this would seem to be a standard price.And of course to use the boat you need the pertinent exam pass! If they intend to stay in Spain best find out the ground rules and relax.
 
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