Boz
Well-Known Member
I looked at a Southerly 115 when looking for my new boat some 4 years ago - apart from being stupidly expensive (over £200,000) someone told me that they are a bit short on internal bulkheads leading to some hull flexing??
Southerly 105
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pvb
Well-Known Member
Trust you'll be having a thorough survey?
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Mine was from 1986 and they may or may not compare much with the new ones - I simply don't know. However, I considered mine to be a very well-built boat and it was rock solid.
Marmalade
Well-Known Member
If it's the Southerly I'm thinking of - the owner was a superb mechanic (professional) and the boat was looked after and had care lavished on her as regards engine and gear usually. I don't know what she's like cosmetically as I haven't been aboard for years. My instinct would be that if you can see the solution to the keel thing she would be a good buy assuming the price is right...
rgarside
Well-Known Member
I noticed the keel assembly from a Southerly sitting in the SYH yard last year [but might have been 2016] - So SYH should have an idea of what's involved in removal, refurbishment and replacement.
The more recent S Jones designed boats [32, ...] seemed to get a better press as sailing boats.
The Parker 31, 325, 335 get very good reports, but are rarely seen for sale.
The more recent S Jones designed boats [32, ...] seemed to get a better press as sailing boats.
The Parker 31, 325, 335 get very good reports, but are rarely seen for sale.
ninjod
Active Member
Back when the Halfway yacht club was a thing my father and I both owned 105’s and kept them on moorings there.
Both of ours had keel work done(the original pivot point was cast and would break if bashed. Rams needed overhauling and regular servicing)
As for sailing performance they are not going to excite you. upwind beyond 60 degrees is not going to happen and downwind with a asymmetrical kite up in a breeze the rudder is too short to give enough bite. There’s a lot of freeboard and in a blow they go sideways.
Biggest issue is you can’t lock the keel down. In 2004 triangle race the weather was very bad and we were knocked down several times. I was always concerned about going too far and having the keel swing back into the boat.
Both of ours had keel work done(the original pivot point was cast and would break if bashed. Rams needed overhauling and regular servicing)
As for sailing performance they are not going to excite you. upwind beyond 60 degrees is not going to happen and downwind with a asymmetrical kite up in a breeze the rudder is too short to give enough bite. There’s a lot of freeboard and in a blow they go sideways.
Biggest issue is you can’t lock the keel down. In 2004 triangle race the weather was very bad and we were knocked down several times. I was always concerned about going too far and having the keel swing back into the boat.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Re nijod's post re the keel swinging back....
That reminds me that on our 115, there was an inspection hatch on the stbd side of the keel box GRP cover (the wall facing the chart table) and that gave access to the upper part of the keel box within which the keel swung.
There was a hole through the keel box (and on the other side of it) and two holes through the keel itself - one that lined up when the keel was retracted into the boat and the other when the keel was down. A large pin went through.
We had ours on a (essentially) drying mooring so I would pull the keel up, insert the pin and then let the electrohydraulics 'down' so that the pressure was on the pin and not on the system itself. Same thing allowed the keel to be locked in the down position to prevent the concern expressed above.
That reminds me that on our 115, there was an inspection hatch on the stbd side of the keel box GRP cover (the wall facing the chart table) and that gave access to the upper part of the keel box within which the keel swung.
There was a hole through the keel box (and on the other side of it) and two holes through the keel itself - one that lined up when the keel was retracted into the boat and the other when the keel was down. A large pin went through.
We had ours on a (essentially) drying mooring so I would pull the keel up, insert the pin and then let the electrohydraulics 'down' so that the pressure was on the pin and not on the system itself. Same thing allowed the keel to be locked in the down position to prevent the concern expressed above.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I doubt it will be a stone sticking the keel. Many people think the keel is like a dagger board and slides in a pretty confined space. There's actually a lot of space inside and the a large chamfered slot the keel drops into when down.
My guess would be lack of antifoul inside the keel box with subsequent growth preventing it lowering. I wouldn't say that the keel needs a huge amount of maintenance. I had an S95 for 23 years and rarely needed to do anything much with the keel. Lifting pennants changed once, hydraulics cleaned & painted and one big job when she was about 26 years old.
I felt her on a mooring on West coast one year and never lifted the keel. Antifoul happened to be ineffective that year and fouling inside housing was like concrete. I did manage to clear it enough to lift/lower about 75%. However, the lifting point on aft. section of keel looked a bit thin and I dropped the keel.
The other major job was down to a design flaw in the lifting bracket and most failed before 1986. I think ours was one lf the last to have it modified when she was 7 years old.
Some information here and links near bottom showing work in 1987 and new bracket in 2006.
http://mistroma.com/MistromaOriginal/LiftKeel.html
I imagine that the original mild steel fuel tank would have rotted away years ago and been replaced already. Owner would be unlikely to repeat Northshore's error (you'd hope) as removal would be a real pain.
My guess would be lack of antifoul inside the keel box with subsequent growth preventing it lowering. I wouldn't say that the keel needs a huge amount of maintenance. I had an S95 for 23 years and rarely needed to do anything much with the keel. Lifting pennants changed once, hydraulics cleaned & painted and one big job when she was about 26 years old.
I felt her on a mooring on West coast one year and never lifted the keel. Antifoul happened to be ineffective that year and fouling inside housing was like concrete. I did manage to clear it enough to lift/lower about 75%. However, the lifting point on aft. section of keel looked a bit thin and I dropped the keel.
The other major job was down to a design flaw in the lifting bracket and most failed before 1986. I think ours was one lf the last to have it modified when she was 7 years old.
Some information here and links near bottom showing work in 1987 and new bracket in 2006.
http://mistroma.com/MistromaOriginal/LiftKeel.html
I imagine that the original mild steel fuel tank would have rotted away years ago and been replaced already. Owner would be unlikely to repeat Northshore's error (you'd hope) as removal would be a real pain.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Yes, Perspex inspection hatch could be removed on our S95 and pictures taken inside the box. I got some good snaps with a bright torch and just waving a camera around inside the hatch. Extent of growth inside was pretty obvious. Never even had to antifoul in there on East coast but had to start after moving to West Coast as keel wasn't being pinned up 90% of the time any longer.
Pin won't lock the keel down unless there was something unique about your boat. The pin is well above the waterline and only used to lock the keel in full raised position. When keel is fully down the pin locking hole must be about 2-3 feet above the top section of the keel. Nothing solid to stop keel moving if boat is inverted, lifting connection is just via Dyneema pennants to block pulled by hydraulic ram.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Yes, sorry, I think you are correct on reflection (it was a while ago
)Whilst you could not lock it fully down, I seem to recall that if you put the pin in when the keel was down (the pin going through the walls only - the keel hole being far below that point) that it would prevent the keel rising beyond a certain point? So, if the pin is in and the boat inverted, the keel would come down part way and be prevented from going further by the pin blocking its path.
All of this is theory: these are very stable boats indeed and, whether or not the keel is down or up, it is difficult to imagine them being inverted and am not aware of it ever happening.
Javelin
Well-Known Member
A 115 fell over and put a prop through the side of the hull at ABP Lowestoft last Saturday. They are particularly difficult to chock up over winter due to the hull being so round in section.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Mate had one in Pwllheli with a sticking keel, he messed with it for months. Eventually bit the bullet and dropped the whole lot off the hull. I remember the efforts to get the pin out! Sledge hamners wouldnt move it, then big rose propane torches, no go! Eventually it was taken to a black smiths where serious heat and muscle finally prevailed! Run away as fast as you can!
Stu
Dazedkipper
Well-Known Member
That is absolute cobblers. I had a 95 on brokerage and a buyer claimed exactly that. I took it up with Northshore who said that the keel mechanism should be 'serviced' as and when necessary, the only item requiring replacement on an 8-10 year basis are the spectra pennants that take the weight of the blade.
pvb
Well-Known Member
So my remark that the keel mechanism needs attention every 8-10 years is "cobblers", is it? But then you say the mechanism does need attention on an 8-10 year basis. So which is it?
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Yes, sorry, I think you are correct on reflection (it was a while ago
Whilst you could not lock it fully down, I seem to recall that if you put the pin in when the keel was down (the pin going through the walls only - the keel hole being far below that point) that it would prevent the keel rising beyond a certain point? So, if the pin is in and the boat inverted, the keel would come down part way and be prevented from going further by the pin blocking its path.
All of this is theory: these are very stable boats indeed and, whether or not the keel is down or up, it is difficult to imagine them being inverted and am not aware of it ever happening.
The locking pin is way above the waterline (no great surprise) and locks the keel fully up with very little further travel left. The height of the lifting block would mean that the keel would stop about 6" further down if raised whilst pin was inserted. The pin would have negligible effect on locking the keel down, perhaps stopping it lifting the last 8" or so. I'd hate to think of the damage from the keel falling into the housing if ever inverted. Pin might act as a buffer by deforming and tearing holes in the inner and outer boxes. Very unlikely situation though, as you say. Worst weather we had was F9 in North Sea but fortunately closing the shore on return from Holland. I seem to remember taking 12 hours to do the last 6 miles, not a lot of fun. Didn't bear thinking about weather 10 miles further offshore.
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Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Far from being particularly difficult to chock up, my S95 could be left without any chocks in extremis. A very small section will sink into the ground if it is soft. The knuckle around the keel pivot pin area does sit proud and the boat would rock slightly on concrete if small wedges weren't place under the grounding plate.
However, it isn't convenient to leave on ground over the winter and mine usually sat on 2 sets of railway sleepers. This allowed the keel to be left 1/2 down for anti-fouling. Remainder was painted from inside and then on slings during launch (keel raised again to allow fresh antifoul to dry).
I'm guessing that the issue you mentioned is likely to be due to sitting the boat on something narrow and putting props on the hull. I can see the props going through the hull if the central blocks toppled over.
Perhaps something like blocks in this picture.
http://mistroma.com/MistromaOriginal/southerly_95_images/Southerly95_History/8707HollandKeel_2.jpg
I always used 2 sets of full length sleepers athwart the hull and they were very stable.
I never ever used any hull props at all during winter storage in 23 year owning an S95. Four small wedges were all it required to keep the boat steady, sometimes had a small block under the bow.
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Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it's because you said "it will need doing and will cost quite a bit" and Dazedkipper is talking about routine replacement of a couple of Dyneema ropes. This is done with the keel in place and isn't exactly difficult as all relevant parts are easy to access (pretty much like having parts on a workbench).
I imagine Dazedkipper is correct if saying it doesn't need expensive work every 8-10 years. You are equally correct in pointing out that expensive work could be required. I wouldn't worry about swapping Dyneema pennants. However, I would take a good look at the lifting bracket and general state inside the keel box (via access hatch).
Pictures during replacement of my previous boat's lifting bracket when it was about 19 years old (click thumbnails to zoom).
http://mistroma.com/MistromaOriginal/GalleryKeel.html
New one should last at least 30 years as it was a bit over engineered (and I looked after it a little each winter with some anti-rust treatment).
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pvb
Well-Known Member
The OP was considering a boat with a keel which doesn't work properly, and was asking for advice on "anywhere locally that could refurbish the keel and grounding plate assembly", which sounds to me as if he's not necessarily a DIY guy. In view of the work involved in removing and replacing the mechanism, and typical East Coast boatyard charges, I reckon it's reasonable to expect it to cost quite a bit.
In dismissing my comment, I assumed Dazedkipper had his broker hat on.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
The OP was considering a boat with a keel which doesn't work properly, and was asking for advice on "anywhere locally that could refurbish the keel and grounding plate assembly", which sounds to me as if he's not necessarily a DIY guy. In view of the work involved in removing and replacing the mechanism, and typical East Coast boatyard charges, I reckon it's reasonable to expect it to cost quite a bit.
In dismissing my comment, I assumed Dazedkipper had his broker hat on.
Ah Sorry, I was responding specifically to the comment "that the keel mechanism needs attention every 8-10 years" and "If this hasn't been done, it will need doing and will cost quite a bit".
I was pointing out that I thought Dazedkipper was correct that only replacement of pennants was needed regularly and that this wouldn't be hugely expensive.
Doesn't mean that no regular maintenance is needed, as with anything on a boat. Also worth checking condition of keel. Most likely reason for sticking is build up of growth inside housing and that can probably be removed cheaply. If OP can't see growth inside the housing then it could be expensive.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Hence my suggestion to get a surveyor to advise.