Graham376
Well-known member
As you say, better to play safe. IIRC, what the EU have said is - any boats in UK will lose EU VAT status. I suspect what they mean is - any UK boat not in EU waters will lose its status.
Sorry in advance, but... retaining EU VAT paid status
- Thread starter syvictoria
- Start date
As you say, better to play safe. IIRC, what the EU have said is - any boats in UK will lose EU VAT status. I suspect what they mean is - any UK boat not in EU waters will lose its status.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Which is NOT what the new Law says..... it says in UK Customs territories.....
Graham376
Well-known member
Do you have a link to the wording of the law? There must be more to it as in effect that implies any UK boat anywhere in the world (except UK Customs territories) will keep it's EU VAT status which I can't see happening. EU RGR only applies to residents bringing goods back in to EU customs area.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
That's why I have asked the commission for confirmation of the UK customs zone only.
Note, to apply for RGR it means you must have EXPORTED the goods. That requires a formality of some sort which most certainly has not happened by just sailing round the world! IMHO
Graham376
Well-known member
According to UK VAT people when I spoke to them about RGR , taking the boat out of the UK for extended period is an export, formal paperwork doesn't have to be completed unless it's a new boat which has been zero rated for export.
greeny
Well-known member
I've asked this before on these forums and never got a straight answer. In fact didn't get any answer.
What happens to ships in foreign lands on the fateful day?
What happens to cars, lorries, airplanes that may all be in the "wrong" country on the final day of reckoning.
Does the "returning goods" clause cover them?
I know we are all interested in our boats on here, but they are all "modes of transport" and are all "goods".
How can they be treated differently to small boats.
It would be interesting to know what the owners of these other vehicles are thinking and doing to prepare. There are lots of parallels there.
Does anyone know?
What happens to ships in foreign lands on the fateful day?
What happens to cars, lorries, airplanes that may all be in the "wrong" country on the final day of reckoning.
Does the "returning goods" clause cover them?
I know we are all interested in our boats on here, but they are all "modes of transport" and are all "goods".
How can they be treated differently to small boats.
It would be interesting to know what the owners of these other vehicles are thinking and doing to prepare. There are lots of parallels there.
Does anyone know?
Graham376
Well-known member
I don't know what will happen and I don't think the EU and UK Gov have thought it all through yet. I suspect there must be different rules for commercial aircraft and road hauliers.
In days of old, before common market, I don't remember doing any paperwork for the car, just had to carry the log book and insurance green card and of course the international driving permit. I do remember being quizzed by UK customs on return one time about where I had bought the new looking tyres as duty would have been payable if bought abroad.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
My history is I bought a Croatian boat with no VAT paid which as a non-Croatian citizen was allowed as long as I exported it when I took possession. I exported it from Split in Croatia in a morning. I re-imported it the next day under temporary import in Mali Losinj, Croatia (no VAT or customs duties paid but with an 18 month limit on the stay). I then moved it in and out of Croatian waters to reset the 18 month clock when necessary and when time permitted - the process takes an afternoon and some paperwork. This was before Croatia joined the EU but I knew Croatia was joining so took the opportunity to buy a VAT free boat - the EU rules for joining countries allow boats over 8 years old to acquire Union Goods status (EU VAT paid) without actually paying VAT - they are effectively "imported" into the EU by the country they are in acceding to the EU.
On Croatias day of accession my boat was sitting in a Marina in Croatia with no EU VAT paid and no Croatian VAT paid. I then arranged to sort out a Croatian equivalent of the T2L and paid a nominal amount of money for a Notar, customs duties etc. My boat was then Union Goods and free to circulate in EU countries with VAT paid.
As a UK(EU) citizen I could keep my boat in a non-EU country under temporary import without needing to pay VAT. It is normal for any visiting yacht with foreign nationals on board to do this - all ports of entry can complete the necessary paperwork in an hour or so. It did mean however that I couldn't visit an EU country without paying a VAT/customs duties bill as I was an EU citizen.
VAT on yachts is currently the only Brexit bonus I know of - why is it a Brexit Bonus? - because as of 01.01.2021 if you are a UK citizen and have no residency or citizenship in the EU then you are a foreign (third country) national which allows you to use the temporary import process to buy and keep a VAT free boat in the EU. You will be limited to 90 days in any 180 in the Schengen area but that's a different discussion, you can legally buy and keep a boat in the EU without ever paying VAT on it.
With this experience, and as I understand it, there are 3 possible outcomes for a UK citizen with no EU residence or citizenship and a current EU goods status (VAT Paid) boat.
1. The boat is in UK waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will become UK Goods and will lose EU Union goods status. This is not a problem, because when you move it to the EU later, as a non-EU citizen you can perform a temporary import at the port of entry and cruise unhindered in the EU subject to the 90/180 Schengen area rules with no need to pay VAT - the temporary import paperwork is your proof. The boat can be kept permanently in the EU but must be exported/imported once every 18 months to reset the temporary import clock - this takes a day.
2. The boat is in EU waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will become EU Goods and will be considered exported UK (VAT paid) goods. This is not a problem, because as long as you don't modify it, sell it, or add to its value considerably while it is in the EU, you can re-import it to the UK using returning goods relief (subject to RGR rules) and restore its UK goods status.
3. The boat is not in UK or EU waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will be seen as currently exported from both the UK and the EU. As a UK citizen there is no route to regaining EU union goods status as only EU citizens/residents can use EU member countries RGR. This is not a problem, because when you move it to the EU later, as a non-EU citizen you can perform a temporary import at the port of entry and cruise unhindered in the EU subject to the 90/180 Schengen area rules with no need to pay VAT - the temporary import paperwork is your proof. The boat can be kept permanently in the EU but must be exported/imported once every 18 months to reset the temporary import clock - this takes a day. Alternatively, as long as you don't modify it, sell it or add to its value considerably while it is out of the UK, you can re-import it to the UK using returning goods relief (subject to RGR rules) and restore its UK goods status.
In all cases a T2L or equivalent proof will assist with these processes considerably.
To summarise:
EU Union goods status will not matter to Brits after 01.01.2021 as Brits are no longer EU nationals and therefore no longer subject to EU VAT on assets like boats kept in the EU - boats can be temporarily imported into the EU. Retaining Union Goods status is only advantageous if you plan to sell your boat in the EU - in which case VAT paid is a huge advantage.
RGR offers a route to regaining UK VAT paid status, regardless of boat location as long as the RGR rules and time limits are followed.
The ability to buy a non-VAT boat in the EU and keep it there VAT free indefinitely (subject to temporary import rules) is the only Brexit benefit for Brits I know of at this point in time.
On Croatias day of accession my boat was sitting in a Marina in Croatia with no EU VAT paid and no Croatian VAT paid. I then arranged to sort out a Croatian equivalent of the T2L and paid a nominal amount of money for a Notar, customs duties etc. My boat was then Union Goods and free to circulate in EU countries with VAT paid.
As a UK(EU) citizen I could keep my boat in a non-EU country under temporary import without needing to pay VAT. It is normal for any visiting yacht with foreign nationals on board to do this - all ports of entry can complete the necessary paperwork in an hour or so. It did mean however that I couldn't visit an EU country without paying a VAT/customs duties bill as I was an EU citizen.
VAT on yachts is currently the only Brexit bonus I know of - why is it a Brexit Bonus? - because as of 01.01.2021 if you are a UK citizen and have no residency or citizenship in the EU then you are a foreign (third country) national which allows you to use the temporary import process to buy and keep a VAT free boat in the EU. You will be limited to 90 days in any 180 in the Schengen area but that's a different discussion, you can legally buy and keep a boat in the EU without ever paying VAT on it.
With this experience, and as I understand it, there are 3 possible outcomes for a UK citizen with no EU residence or citizenship and a current EU goods status (VAT Paid) boat.
1. The boat is in UK waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will become UK Goods and will lose EU Union goods status. This is not a problem, because when you move it to the EU later, as a non-EU citizen you can perform a temporary import at the port of entry and cruise unhindered in the EU subject to the 90/180 Schengen area rules with no need to pay VAT - the temporary import paperwork is your proof. The boat can be kept permanently in the EU but must be exported/imported once every 18 months to reset the temporary import clock - this takes a day.
2. The boat is in EU waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will become EU Goods and will be considered exported UK (VAT paid) goods. This is not a problem, because as long as you don't modify it, sell it, or add to its value considerably while it is in the EU, you can re-import it to the UK using returning goods relief (subject to RGR rules) and restore its UK goods status.
3. The boat is not in UK or EU waters 31.12.2020-01.01.2021 ... in which case the boat will be seen as currently exported from both the UK and the EU. As a UK citizen there is no route to regaining EU union goods status as only EU citizens/residents can use EU member countries RGR. This is not a problem, because when you move it to the EU later, as a non-EU citizen you can perform a temporary import at the port of entry and cruise unhindered in the EU subject to the 90/180 Schengen area rules with no need to pay VAT - the temporary import paperwork is your proof. The boat can be kept permanently in the EU but must be exported/imported once every 18 months to reset the temporary import clock - this takes a day. Alternatively, as long as you don't modify it, sell it or add to its value considerably while it is out of the UK, you can re-import it to the UK using returning goods relief (subject to RGR rules) and restore its UK goods status.
In all cases a T2L or equivalent proof will assist with these processes considerably.
To summarise:
EU Union goods status will not matter to Brits after 01.01.2021 as Brits are no longer EU nationals and therefore no longer subject to EU VAT on assets like boats kept in the EU - boats can be temporarily imported into the EU. Retaining Union Goods status is only advantageous if you plan to sell your boat in the EU - in which case VAT paid is a huge advantage.
RGR offers a route to regaining UK VAT paid status, regardless of boat location as long as the RGR rules and time limits are followed.
The ability to buy a non-VAT boat in the EU and keep it there VAT free indefinitely (subject to temporary import rules) is the only Brexit benefit for Brits I know of at this point in time.
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nortada
Well-known member
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
What is the T2L equivalent proof you speak of
I have a European Union Import document issued by Croatian customs in Pula with the boat details on it and a zero VAT charge and a nominal import duty paid - it is dated after Croatia joined the EU. This effectively makes it Union Goods (VAT Paid). I believe an original sales invoice from a VAT registered company showing the VAT charged at point of sale also works as evidence of VAT status, but if the invoice is not in the sellers name then care must be taken to ensure the VAT paid was never reclaimed. It's a bit of a nightmare ensuring VAT status IMO and a T2L would be the best route if it can be obtained for the yacht.
nortada
Well-known member
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Until recently the HMRC said that RGR does not and have never applied to Yachts. When the EU stated that RGR would be used to allow eg French yachts in the UK to return to france - it was to provide a framework for a missing gap - or worry - on yachts. The UK responded with reciprocal arrangements.
I am awaiting an answer from the EU commission on this.....
Graham376
Well-known member
That seems the case from what I was told. I gather RGR was there just for commercial goods taken out and brought back. There are separate rules for personal belongings/goods taken back to UK such as when people move their residence back.
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Chris_Robb
Well-known member
RGR -I am awaiting clarification from both the EU and the Greeks (primarily because of the great number of yachts that may not make it to Greece from Turkey due to the ban on them. I hope they clarify the 2 points:
1. What constitutes Export
2. Confirm that when NOT in UK Customs union area - as described in EU Advice - that EU 27 VAT will be maintained.
dune16
Active member
I see the latest advice from rya regarding boats in eu waters end of Dec 31st. What I wanted to know is what's kinds of "proof" are owners going to obtain? I have my t2l and I'm going to try and get my marina to write a letter dated December 31st confirming my boat was in her berth that day. Anything else I can do?
"It is recommended that you retain documentation which demonstrates the vessel’s location at the time the transition period ends. When we asked the European Commission about the evidence an owner might need to retain to demonstrate the location of the vessel at the time the UK leaves the Union, we were advised that there is no specific document or form and that the boater should provide evidence (if requested) in such form that customs would consider appropriate in their particular situation."
"It is recommended that you retain documentation which demonstrates the vessel’s location at the time the transition period ends. When we asked the European Commission about the evidence an owner might need to retain to demonstrate the location of the vessel at the time the UK leaves the Union, we were advised that there is no specific document or form and that the boater should provide evidence (if requested) in such form that customs would consider appropriate in their particular situation."
Graham376
Well-known member
I don't know what else you can do. I'm in a different position being mooring based so no marina receipts. May ask the sailing club to issue letter and although I won't be on the boat New Year's eve, I will be in the country so will collect a few receipts when shopping.
syvictoria
Well-known member
I was hoping that just a mooring invoice marked paid for the winter period would suffice....
(If it wasn't for covid-19, I would be tempted to travel back out to the boat for NYE!)
(If it wasn't for covid-19, I would be tempted to travel back out to the boat for NYE!)
dune16
Active member
It may be ok, I'd just feel more comfortable having something dated on that day. More paperwork the better if somebody official comes asking....
dslittle
Well-known member
I sympathise with you but shopping receipts will only show that you were there, not the boat.
I’m sure that a letter from the Club stating that the boat was physically there will suffice.
I’m hoping that such a letter from my Marina (plus the receipt for it being on the hard there) will do it for me...
Graham376
Well-known member
I have light dues invoice from summer and will be hauled into the yard 4th or 5th Jan, so shouldn't be too much of a problem convincing them I wasn't in UK waters
