Soft shackles

Ceirwan said:
your attempts to belittle anyone who wants do something different than yourself are getting old now.
Click to expand...

Seajet's opinions are pretty easy to predict. In this case, soft shackles were not used on the Harrier, therefore they must be crap!
 
snooks said:
Typical, we run oodles of pages in the magazine about soft shackles, and there's one design we didn't try. :0)

However on that link it says:
"Improved soft shackle: The conventional soft shackles all break at the diamond knot. So the question to explore was: is there an easy to tie replacement for the diamond that is stronger? "

However, in many cases during our tests, of ties and commercially available shackles, it wasn't the knot that failed. Often it was the loop that the knot passes through which let go first.

We had a soft shackle with a diamond knot fail at 4 tonnes, the break load of the line was 1.9 tonnes...
Click to expand...

i wonder just how much difference the actual making of the knot makes.

I think Evans Starzinger did a load of testing for the link, this bit is interesting-
I have found that that pulling 'hand tight' knots like the diamond (e.g. knots with a bunch of bulk and size) very fast (but still within the cordage institute standard) would significantly decrease the breaking strength. The practical lesson for us is to 'pre-tension' our knots (on soft shackles and fixed loops) quite slowly to a very high load (say right to or even just past the expected working load limit), so there will not be much slippage left and heat if they are shock loaded.
Click to expand...
I work a lot with hi tech line like dyneema and the fact that it is so strong with so little stretch needs to be taken onboard, with splices it's very important to taper the tail otherwise the line will break at the end of the tail just with that slight bump as the fibres at the outside of the bend take all the load , same with going round pulleys, the radius is important as there's no real give to even up the load on the fibres as the rope bends around the pulley.

None of which matters to us :cool:

It's so strong you'll rip off something else on your boat long before anything like that.

Wish I'd a nice big load cell and a bench to break things on, that's great fun :)

Here's one made of tech12 in a friends workshop with 2.5T on it. Knot hard as a rock.

IMG00049-20110121-1608.jpg
 
GHA said:
i wonder just how much difference the actual making of the knot makes.

I think Evans Starzinger did a load of testing for the link, this bit is interesting-
I work a lot with hi tech line like dyneema and the fact that it is so strong with so little stretch needs to be taken onboard, with splices it's very important to taper the tail otherwise the line will break at the end of the tail just with that slight bump as the fibres at the outside of the bend take all the load , same with going round pulleys, the radius is important as there's no real give to even up the load on the fibres as the rope bends around the pulley.

None of which matters to us :cool:

It's so strong you'll rip off something else on your boat long before anything like that.

Wish I'd a nice big load cell and a bench to break things on, that's great fun :)

Here's one made of tech12 in a friends workshop with 2.5T on it. Knot hard as a rock.

IMG00049-20110121-1608.jpg
Click to expand...

We go into this in more detail in the feature (and at the end of the video). I tighten mine using my sheet winches to pull the ends out of the knot, with the loop of the shackle secured. It makes the knots small and rock hard.
 
snooks said:
We go into this in more detail in the feature (and at the end of the video). I tighten mine using my sheet winches to pull the ends out of the knot, with the loop of the shackle secured. It makes the knots small and rock hard.
Click to expand...


OK Snooks to be fair to you this was a really good piece of science journalism: ask some pertinent questions, perform a series of unbiased tests and then deliver a good write-up/vid on how to make something both useful and great value.

It is also a welcome step away from some of YM's tired old staples in favour of modern technology, new ideas, and how everyone can benefit from the many advances that have emanated from the racetrack and its suppliers.

Well done, a cracking piece of work and keep it up :encouragement:
 
dom said:
OK Snooks to be fair to you this was a really good piece of science journalism: ask some pertinent questions, perform a series of unbiased tests and then deliver a good write-up/vid on how to make something both useful and great value.

It is also a welcome step away from some of YM's tired old staples in favour of modern technology, new ideas, and how everyone can benefit from the many advances that have emanated from the racetrack and its suppliers.

Well done, a cracking piece of work and keep it up :encouragement:
Click to expand...

Why I'd love to take all the credit, Vyv suggested and wrote the article, Kieran the Editor was supportive and gave the subject a host of pages and Simon, our art ed, was instrumental in making Vyv's writing and my witterings clear and logical.

We also couldn't have made it the feature it was without the help of companies like Tradline and English Braids.

The feature caused a whole host of headaches for everyone, but we're all happy with the final product. But no matter how happy we are, it means nothing unless you guys feel it's worthwhile, and we have the balance right.

Thank you.
 
Last edited:
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
I have never used Low Friction Rings, however, they appear to be simple, light and a good alternative to blocks for certain places. I will make a point of installing few to find out how good and practical they can be; its always fun trying something different despite of the outcome.
Click to expand...

I have used them on my dynema backstay tensioning & on the kicking strap. In those situations the dymema passes through the rings & stops. Looks neat & works really fine with nice splices
I am not so sure I would use them where a dynema, or any other rope , or sheet for that matter, had to pass through them a lot - as in a genoa sheet under load, single line reefing or in a preventer where they may allow the line to move back & forth a bit. The friction may create heat & that may be a problem
It's only a theory so I may be wrong but in those situations I will stick with blocks.
 
Daydream believer said:
I am not so sure I would use them where a dynema, or any other rope , or sheet for that matter, had to pass through them a lot - as in a genoa sheet under load, single line reefing or in a preventer where they may allow the line to move back & forth a bit. The friction may create heat & that may be a problem
It's only a theory so I may be wrong but in those situations I will stick with blocks.
Click to expand...

I suspect that most of the Open 60s that do the Vendee Globe later this year will use Antal rings as their genoa turning blocks. The system allows the ring to be manipulated in three dimensions - forward / aft, inboard / outboard, up / down.
 
Daydream believer said:
Can you not still do that with a ball raced block with less friction?
Click to expand...

Weight, control, repair-ability and simplicity

On the 60's I've been on there is sometimes a short inboard/outboard track across the deck, and an inboard tweaker line, and a down line going from the ring, to the short adjustable track. Or just one inboard, one outboard and one down adjuster.

On mine I have replaced my genoa car with one down adjuster.
 
Last edited:
Tranona said:
What has that got to do with soft shackles?

Several people who know far more about the subject than you (or I) have stated quite clearly that Dyneema is stronger size for size than stainless wire, highly chafe resistant and UV resistant. Never, ever seen chafe of shrouds as an issue.

Why are you making things up that have no basis in fact?
Click to expand...

Real sailors take precautions without waiting for ' facts ' to happen !

Shrouds at side edges of boat = don't use ropes - even trendy dayglo ones - subject to chafe...:rolleyes:
 
Seajet said:
Real sailors take precautions without waiting for ' facts ' to happen !

Shrouds at side edges of boat = don't use ropes - even trendy dayglo ones - subject to chafe...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

This is taking obtuse to new heights.

We're not talking about shrouds, we're talking about SHACKLES.
 
Seajet said:
Real sailors take precautions without waiting for ' facts ' to happen !

Shrouds at side edges of boat = don't use ropes - even trendy dayglo ones - subject to chafe...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You clearly do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Please read the article in question and you will find, as stated many times here that the material in question is very abrasion resistant. However, since when has chafe on shrouds been an issue? You are just making that up.

Dyneema has been used successfully both for shrouds and for tensioning shrouds because of its properties (strength, minimal stretch, abrasion and UV resistance) for many years. Equally soft shackles, the subject of this thread have also been in use for many years. If you have not seen this it just illustrates how out of touch you are with the world and why you get so many things wrong.
 
Tranona said:
Dyneema has been used successfully both for shrouds and for tensioning shrouds because of its properties (strength, minimal stretch, abrasion and UV resistance) for many years.
Click to expand...

As a matter of interest, do you have dyneema or stainless steel shrouds on your new boat?
 
Ceirwan said:
This is taking obtuse to new heights.

We're not talking about shrouds, we're talking about SHACKLES.
Click to expand...

We are, but the line between being obtuse and being a troll was crossed a long time ago in my eyes.

It's clear to any reasonable mind that material technology progresses over time, then there is a point at which it becomes affordable to mortals who want to progress and take advantage of new technology. We reached that ponit with Dyneema some time ago.

I'll happily leave Seajet to his pile VHS videos to watch on his 14in b/w TV.

Shackles are a way of connecting two things close together, shrouds are not.
 
Last edited:
Dyneema not susceptible to crevice corrosion either.

Edit - meant to refer to an earlier seajet post regarding the merits of stainless steel [though proper steel with a regular dressing of fish oil might be preferred.]
 
Last edited:
snooks said:
Shackles are a way of connecting two things close together, shrouds are not.
Click to expand...

OK, I confess that I am finding it a little tricky to follow all the arguments, so ...

I am planning to replace all my standing rigging this year. Is there any reason for me not to use Dyneema rather than stainless?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top