SOF anchoring

[Elessar]

@jfm in your ship building thread you said

"When away in other ports I'm basically gambling that I will be able to find 3ph shorepower in most places. Remember also that due to the SoF bans on anchoring 24m boats, I will need to use marinas overnight more than I want to."

I didn't want to drift that thread with the A word even if it isn't about the hardware.

It seems a shame to look out of the cabin windows at a set of fenders - can you tell us more?

 

[Portofino]

Well if I may add some back ground .
Its more of an outdoor life ( due to the climate ) so you don’t spend a lot if any daylight time “ down below in cabins “ .

Anchoring off is fine occasionally esp for guests newbies to boating and whole Med boaty scene ….more so if it’s a pretty place with easy ( via tender ) shore access .But and it’s a big but imho after the novelty has worn off and it does despite how much sea water runs through your veins …..remember it’s a leisure/ holiday thing .So basically folks like to go ashore , muse the shops , restaurants, other sights and absorb the ambiance.+ enjoy a real beer .Assuming JFM s not spec ing a pub like hand pulled tap in the saloon .
Here sone pics to illustrate.
Entered the bay of La Spetzia to anchor .


SL factory is further in ( top rhs )


Squeezed in here .^

This is what I was on about + ice cream + people watching etc .^

Porto venere - note some 100 ftrs - room for about a 6 along that quay .


Poverty spec boats ^ .
Point is its nice in the AM to wander to a cafe for coffee + croissant.+ you never can trust the met forecasts …..so berthing up seems more sensible all things told !

Sorry about the pic rotations they are from the same I pad cachet .

 

[DAW]

Restrictions on anchoring apply along the majority of the coastline of the Côte d’Azur. In most cases these prohibit anchoring of boats with LOA of 24m and above in close proximity to the coast with a view to to protecting the posidonia grass. Many regions now apply restrictions from 20m LOA and up. The size of the restricted zone varies but is generally 300-400 m from the shore. This far from the shore, you are usually in water that is +20m depth and often not particularly well sheltered from prevailing winds and swell. Anchoring overnight in a quiet bay in shallow water close to the beach is a thing of the past for larger boats.

 

[Elessar]

Well if I may add some back ground .
Its more of an outdoor life ( due to the climate ) so you don’t spend a lot if any daylight time “ down below in cabins “ .

Anchoring off is fine occasionally esp for guests newbies to boating and whole Med boaty scene ….more so if it’s a pretty place with easy ( via tender ) shore access .But and it’s a big but imho after the novelty has worn off and it does despite how much sea water runs through your veins …..remember it’s a leisure/ holiday thing .So basically folks like to go ashore , muse the shops , restaurants, other sights and absorb the ambiance.+ enjoy a real beer .Assuming JFM s not spec ing a pub like hand pulled tap in the saloon .
Here sone pics to illustrate.View attachment 153068
Entered the bay of La Spetzia to anchor .

View attachment 153069
SL factory is further in ( top rhs )

View attachment 153070
Squeezed in here .^
View attachment 153071
This is what I was on about + ice cream + people watching etc .^
View attachment 153072
Porto venere - note some 100 ftrs - room for about a 6 along that quay .

View attachment 153073
Poverty spec boats ^ .
Point is its nice in the AM to wander to a cafe for coffee + croissant.+ you never can trust the met forecasts …..so berthing up seems more sensible all things told !

Sorry about the pic rotations they are from the same I pad cachet .

Completely missing the point P.

In JFMs stabilised ship you are going to want to wake up to the view of the sea out of your panoramic cabin windows. It’s not an unstabilised sport boat with a compromised interior. You’ll be able to live on board for weeks.

Even in my unstabilsed 46 footer I do about 50:50 anchor:harbour on holiday because I have everything I need on board.

He’s suggesting that anchoring is going to be limited and I wanted to know why.

 

[julians]

I think the question is more about the "ban on 24m anchoring" comment from JFM - ie whats that all about then? presume its a ban on overnight anchoring? or is it something like, not allowed to stay more than 24 hours in one place?

 

[Bouba]

Well if I may add some back ground .
Its more of an outdoor life ( due to the climate ) so you don’t spend a lot if any daylight time “ down below in cabins “ .

Anchoring off is fine occasionally esp for guests newbies to boating and whole Med boaty scene ….more so if it’s a pretty place with easy ( via tender ) shore access .But and it’s a big but imho after the novelty has worn off and it does despite how much sea water runs through your veins …..remember it’s a leisure/ holiday thing .So basically folks like to go ashore , muse the shops , restaurants, other sights and absorb the ambiance.+ enjoy a real beer .Assuming JFM s not spec ing a pub like hand pulled tap in the saloon .
Here sone pics to illustrate.View attachment 153068
Entered the bay of La Spetzia to anchor .

View attachment 153069
SL factory is further in ( top rhs )

View attachment 153070
Squeezed in here .^
View attachment 153071
This is what I was on about + ice cream + people watching etc .^
View attachment 153072
Porto venere - note some 100 ftrs - room for about a 6 along that quay .

View attachment 153073
Poverty spec boats ^ .
Point is its nice in the AM to wander to a cafe for coffee + croissant.+ you never can trust the met forecasts …..so berthing up seems more sensible all things told !

Sorry about the pic rotations they are from the same I pad cachet .

Elesar does ask a good question...because there are these new restrictions on large boats anchoring close to shore...and space in port for a 100 foot boat might be in short supply...but how much is a night in the SOF during peak times ? would probably make my eyes water

 

[DAW]

I think the question is more about the "ban on 24m anchoring" comment from JFM - ie whats that all about then? presume its a ban on overnight anchoring? or is it something like, not allowed to stay more than 24 hours in one place?

it’s a complete ban on anchoring of boats with LOA +20/24m within the restricted zones … not a time limit or a restriction on overnight stays. Enforcement is not particularly rigorous, but if they decide to make an example of you the penalties for non-compliance are significant.

 

[Portofino]

Completely missing the point P.

In JFMs stabilised ship you are going to want to wake up to the view of the sea out of your panoramic cabin windows. It’s not an unstabilised sport boat with a compromised interior. You’ll be able to live on board for weeks.

Even in my unstabilsed 46 footer I do about 50:50 anchor:harbour on holiday because I have everything I need on board.

He’s suggesting that anchoring is going to be limited and I wanted to know why.

The SoF have a few yrs ago restricted anchoring for boats over 20 M close in .Usually the pretty places . Some “green “ eco weed thingy .Not worth debating , your can’t with Greta types !

How ever having said that you can anchor further out but as I said you are in the lap of the gods from a met pov .+ The social point , beers + restaurants / shops etc still stands .It’s still possible to not to use ports if you want .
Even our tub with its 500 L fresh water tankage between a couple can do 5 days .It tends to calm at night anyhow .Not wanting to re ignite a stabs argument .

But we choose to evening in a port , for all the reasons I have explained.

Realise more expedition / adventure guys there boat use age will be different.


Here you are it’s St Jean .JFM cant anchor there now .No stabs needed as I said . We are on our tender off to collect a Piza .
Further out the big fish lurk ( out of shot ) .

Other times .

Historic GP ( the proper one)setting up , in this case it’s better to step ashore .
Go for beers etc saving getting a wet arse , or trying to find the mothership returning by tender .

 

[Elessar]

it’s a complete ban on anchoring of boats with LOA +20/24m within the restricted zones … not a time limit or a restriction on overnight stays. Enforcement is not particularly rigorous, but if they decide to make an example of you the penalties for non-compliance are significant.

So the French authorities want the people with the deepest pockets to take their boats elsewhere? I can't see any other reason for such a nonsensical rule.

 

[MapisM]

Naah, these measures are always triggered by other reasons, like pleasing tree huggers (in this particular case), or pleasing anyone who think boaters should be taxed to death (when some boat-related taxes are introduced), etc.
Getting rid of high spending people is never the aim, but it can indeed be a side effect of rules like these, as history proves.

 

[Portofino]

So the French authorities want the people with the deepest pockets to take their boats elsewhere? I can't see any other reason for such a nonsensical rule.

They just anchor a bit further out adding to your supposition a big boat with stabs / water maker / silent as the come genys / tech for safety , security and met , not forgetting a bigger tender or chase boat = can .

Not wanting to get into arguing with “ greens “ it leaves more space for little uns like me .Think about it more anchors net result albeit a bit smaller but more net chain L ripping up the weeds .

Its not chased any off and if so there’s plenty of replacements waiting for there Berth .Such is the pull of the CdA .

Not mentioned thus far is another rule ( variable enforcement with weighty fines ) is the speed zones .Yes zones with speed limits in guess what ….the very places where you want to get a shift on .It’s a wave wash thingy I understand.

So on top of your usual nav day out even if you know the area from yrs of local experience you have juggle low speed zones ( effects all btw ) and if over 20M the anchorage restrictions…..in the best or where the best locations .

I don’t miss this nonsense in Italy .

 

[jointventureII]

It also applies to a lot of places in southern Corsica. They are quite vigilant about it and repeat offenders have been fined with the threat of confiscation of licences too

 

[MapisM]

I don’t miss this nonsense in Italy.

Neither do I, but don't say that out loud.
As anyone with some grey hairs knows, utterly silly rules are not unheard of, also around here...

 

[Bouba]

I think the problem gets worse...depending on where you are...a lot of places don’t allow propellers near the beach...so even your big rib from 300 meters out will then need to anchor and launch a small inflatable and row the last 50 m

 

[stelican]

I understood JFM new boat is classed as 24m so I would of thought that rule would not apply.

 

[DAW]

I understood JFM new boat is classed as 24m so I would of thought that rule would not apply.

The SL96A has a load line length of just below 24m, but the LOA is 29m.

Load line is relevant for the purposes of determining what category of licence you need to operate the vessel and what rules and regulations apply to is operation. Above 24m life gets much more complicated and you need commercially qualified crew. That‘s why SL, Sunseeker, Princess, etc. all build boats with detachable bow sections, platforms, etc.. Detachable/removable sections are not included in the measurement of load line length, so they can squeeze under 24m with a boat that has an LOA of up to about 30m.

Most of the rules and regulations issued by maritime authorities in Europe aimed at pleasure vessels are drafted with RCD/CE certification in mind, as this is much easier for them to measure and verify. Therefore, they almost exclusively use LOA.

 

[Bouba]

The problem with parking a boat so far out to sea is that not many of the passengers would feel comfortable swimming

 

[jfm]

Several points made above and a few quick thoughts:

1. Yes in most of SoF and also N and S corsica there are new laws banning anchoring of 24m+ boats inshore of a defined red line that basically follows the 20m contour. The zones around Cap Ferrat also have a 20m+ boat no go zone but in most other places its 24m. Good info here

2. Enforcement varies and has been light, except if you're one of the ones caught and get a big fine. Some enforcement has been done via AIS (solution = "off" switch), and some is done by police RIBs. I have seen 28m boats anchored in no-go zones and watched police RIBs drive by without caring, but I know of specific fines and have had one myself from a police RIB in the 20m zone in villefranche (in 2019, a week after the law was passed, with no publicity, so I didn't know it existed. I have anchored in that spot maybe 100 times).

3. The law is based on LOA not LLL, as DAW says above

4. Reason for law is to protect posidonia seagrass, they say. Objectively that isn't 100% plausible as the real reason, and some green policies (green as in envy) might be operating too - who knows? Posidonia is important to oxygenate the sea, but these policies should come down to how much seagrass is destroyed versus how much human pleasure and economic benefit islost when these boats clear off. The posidonia pressure group's website refers to a study on a busy anchorage that concluded 9% of posidonia seagrass in that anchorage was lost due to anchors. But that is, imho, pure denominator cheating to get a number as big as 9%. If you take 100 miles of South of France boating coast, only about 5% (my ballpark estimate) of that 100 miles is bays where you can anchor. The rest is coast that all boats drive by, never stopping. The pressure group has chosen just that 5% as their denominator for the 9% statement, so the true loss of posidonia over the 100 miles is more like 0.45%, which is in effect zero. So it's an irrational horrible law in my opinion, but it exists.

5. By the way, they seem to ignore posidonia loss caused by run off of chemicals etc from the land.

6. Some very small reliefs from these laws are that Cap Ferrat is ok ish, there is a good enough place you can anchor in the Lerin Islands, and in Corsica they have drawn boxes within the 24m no go zones where 24.1-30m boats are allowed to anchor in quite nice locations (one at Saleccia beach, one at Loto beach, for example). Also the chase boat will help a bit..

7. I'm going to spend less time in SofF because of this. Antibes is great for winter, but with the bigger boat I'll spend more time in Sardinia, Formentera, Italy generally, and maybe on to Adriatic and Greece.

8. You can skyhook anchor for up to 2 hours. Not exactly a peaceful thing to do with two v16s gurgling away, and will kill swimmers, but that's the law they have passed. I'm contemplating one of those Xenta joysticks on new boat just for this purpose, but not really sure there is any point.

9. I considered for a while buying a Sunreef 80 because it's massive and still 24m, but there's so much not to like about them including ugliness (imho), build quality (imho), you can't stabilise them (pysics) and you can't easily get an away-from-home berth. So I dropped that idea.

10. Corsica is confusing. These laws exist at top and bottom of the important west coast, but not in the middle (which is stunningly beautiful). East coast is irrelevant for boating. But the link I posted above shows a red line indicating the whole W coast of Corsica now has these laws, but it doesn't state the reference number (it just says "xxx/2023"). That might mean a law is coming soon for that location.

As you can probably tell I hate these new laws.

 

[jfm]

The SL96A has a load line length of just below 24m, but the LOA is 29m.

Load line is relevant for the purposes of determining what category of licence you need to operate the vessel and what rules and regulations apply to is operation. Above 24m life gets much more complicated and you need commercially qualified crew. That‘s why SL, Sunseeker, Princess, etc. all build boats with detachable bow sections, platforms, etc.. Detachable/removable sections are not included in the measurement of load line length, so they can squeeze under 24m with a boat that has an LOA of up to about 30m.

Most of the rules and regulations issued by maritime authorities in Europe aimed at pleasure vessels are drafted with RCD/CE certification in mind, as this is much easier for them to measure and verify. Therefore, they almost exclusively use LOA.

DAW, hope you don't mind if I thread drift because it's nerdishly interesting. You touch on a big topic there. A few things:

1. Most of these detachable bow sections etc are to get the boat below 24m LH (defined in ISO 8666:2021, which I can't link because it is €80 paywalled) , not 24m LLL. LH is a much tougher rule. The SL96A would be below the 24m LLL limit even if the nosecone were not detachable, but it needs the nosecone to get below the 24m LH limit.

2. MCA published a lot of garbage on this in 2022 See here. This is a truly awful piece of quasi law, written by folks who have no clue about to interpret the law that already exists and even less of a clue about how to write new quasi law. Of course they probably think they're right so if you don't follow their "rules" you might have a little battle, but that wouldn't scare me at all. The relevant bits are parts 5 and part 7. As just some examples of the awfulness of that document:

• The first sentence of 5.1 defeats itself - whoever wrote it can't write
• 2nd para of 5.1 creates an explicit motive test that simply doesn't exist in the law. MCA have no authority to create such a law - only parliament can do that
• 7.1 c correctly quotes ISO8666 (the definition that RCD borrows) but as a matter of English (especially the Oxford comma) the phrase "if they do not act as hydrostatic support" qualifies only "fenders". It's a rather odd paragraph all round. Anyway, MCA then write their para 7.2 ignoring the actual words in 7.1c.
• The second sentence of 7.4 is outrageous. MCA have absolutely no authority to make such a rule and it has no basis at all in law. The idea that two identical boats are treated differently now just because one owner plans long into the future to charter it commercially, is total garbage.
• 7.5 again just invents a new rule that is not in the law. There is no "operate safely" rule in the actual law (ie in the RCD definition of LH that the RCD takes from ISO8666:2021).

All round, this is a terrible job by the MCA, imho. If I needed to argue (I don't and won't) that a removeable nosecone should be excluded from 24m LH, and they disagreed and withheld certification as they threaten in section 8, they would be before a court pretty sharpish.

 

[dunedin]

On the contrary MCA para 5.1 seems quite clear to me
Any addition or arrangement on the bow or stern of the vessel, the effect of which is to change the calculation of the Load Line Length (L) and which is normally in position during navigation will be taken into account in the calculation of L.

Cut-outs in the stem or stern, an example of which is shown in Figure 7 above, which serve no functional purpose and exist solely to circumvent the requirement for vessels with L of 24 metres and above to comply with the 1966 International Load Line Convention (as amended) will be treated as if they do not exist for the determination of L.

And it sounds like these measures by your own statements do indeed “exist solely to circumvent” the 24m regulations.
Perhaps the MCA and others should be clearer in their enforcement of the rules