So I run a dock & a paying user comes to harm ...

And yet no one is arguing against your point Sorabain. It does not automatically assume that the railway is at fault and therefore liable if someone jumps the red light, races the boom gates and then fails does it? It's the people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions that gets me. Yes there are always accidents, no real way past that. But just because an accident happens doesn't warrant a claim. It's akin to my pontoon analogy, or for that matter putting signs up around the entire coast of Britain at 500 yard intervals that if you decide to go for a swim you might just drown. People need to think for themselves as well.
 
BruceK said:
It does not automatically assume that the railway is at fault and therefore liable if someone jumps the red light, races the boom gates and then fails does it?
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They do look in detail at cases even where a driver has clearly driven around the gates. e.g.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8fb8e5274a428d000141/R042014_140224_Athelney.pdf

page 23-25 for causes and recommendations. In this case trying to come up with rational reasons why the driver might have skipped the gates (thinking they broken because they had been down for such a long time, recommending measures to try to avoid them being down for so long in future etc)

I agree on taking responsibility for own actions, but if things can be designed so that you're nudged into doing the right thing (where the easiest thing to do becomes the right thing to do) then all the better. Especially the case if you're doing something with distractions (in this case walking around your boat looking at the hull more than the ground)

Not expecting everyone to go so far as the RAIB but it's often worth taking an open-minded view of even minor and possibly humorous incidents as they could be a prelude to something more serious happening later.
 
In a nutshell what you are saying is it would have been beneficial for a sign to be at the lip of the dock. Well, as far as I can see no one has or will dispute that. What is in dispute is that the absence of a sign has put forth a question of liability by the dock owner. And that I think is unfair.
 
BruceK said:
In a nutshell what you are saying is it would have been beneficial for a sign to be at the lip of the dock. Well, as far as I can see no one has or will dispute that. What is in dispute is that the absence of a sign has put forth a question of liability by the dock owner. And that I think is unfair.
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Read my post #16
I dispute just repositioning the sign .
 
superheat6k said:
Who's at fault here ..
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.......more or less a description of our club drying blocks and suspect many others.

Some skippers have actually got it a tiny bit wrong and a boat or two has settled backwards with damage needing repair.
The notice states use " at your own risk !"
None of the skippers to my knowledge attempted to make any claim other than from their insurers and we did not hear anything from insurers.
We have a collapsable guard chain at each end of blocks to prevent nitwits stepping of the end.
You are supposed to drop them before leaving blocks as they do not mix well with newly mended props.
That cost me a second prop reburbishment and second visit to blocks.
 
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Surely it was up to the boat owner to check everything out especially as he seemed to be new.
Great shame he fell and 'phone ruined.
As he has not made too much about his dunking I would think that a contribution to his costs that does not imply any liability would be a good gesture. He may have insurance for his 'phone of course.
 
BruceK said:
In a nutshell what you are saying is it would have been beneficial for a sign to be at the lip of the dock. Well, as far as I can see no one has or will dispute that. What is in dispute is that the absence of a sign has put forth a question of liability by the dock owner. And that I think is unfair.
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I just popped back on here for a breather after doing a bit of real-world lawyering which, for me, mostly consists of getting paid for helping corporates buy, sell and enhance investment-grade real estate. As they say, it's mostly indoors work with no heavy-lifting; so what's not to like?

As you say, we do live in a litigious world that has very little room for the concept expressed by the late great Blondie Hasler that, should he get in over his head, his plan would be to die like a gentleman.

In that world, like it or not, we often have to align with our insurers and minimise our liability risk.

So, to go back to the OP's question. I have no idea who would be liable for what in a court case. I wouldn't waste the money on finding out if I thought I could make this potential claim go away for the price of an iPhone, some dry-cleaning and a bunch of flowers for the missus. But, I'd absolutely risk-assess the bejasus out of the situation with my insurers before I was happy to carry on trying to make a living from providing this facility.
 
Actually I blame lawyers for this dismal state of affairs. Maybe if they were part liable for court fees in spurious claims if they lost their case there would be less inclination for them to try it on.
 
Personally, my view is that regardless of their liability and duty of care, the owner of the dock is completely missing an opportunity by not installing a dockside camera and could really rake in some YouTube traffic if this was done correctly; he’s missing out on revenue imho....
 
Absolutely the hazards should be explained in the paper printed contract that was prepared for this service and the need for the user to have his own insurance . There was was a printed contract was there not ? If not the 'owner' should pay up and learn from the experience. Be thankful the matter has not been reported to the HSE.
 
That's punitive. Just how many potential hazards could there be? The list would be long indeed. Has the punter had a tetanus shot? Just in case he scratches himself and gets an infection. It's little wonder that such facilities are getting rare. Not allowed to do anything for yourself anymore. Next stop, you won't be able to do your own AF. Clean your own bilge and engine room out etc etc. Hell there is a law enforcing you to wear a car seatbelt, made legal because some are too stupid to do so unless under duress. Now I'm not against HSE. But buying too deeply into it will cost you some independence to do your own work. It's mad. I spent some time in hospital last year. Wasn't allowed to walk anywhere. Had to be pushed around in a wheelchair. What the hell. No, explained the nurse, its in case I fall and sue them. Now I'm not British or European for that matter, and I am not sure whether to be appalled or amused at times. I had just walked over a mile to get to the hospital from the parking area. My feet were fine. Why didn't they provide the wheelchair service from the parking lot? Because their liability didn't extend that far. It's all just rubbish and fodder for the meek.
 
Flynnbarr said:
Maybe the boat owner has Old Man Syndrome and needs to think about calling it a day.
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Thanks for all the answers here.

Sad thing is this last idea has passed through said owner's mind. Indeed this is likely why said owner is just so hacked off with the whole thing.

The reaction of the dock owner was astounding, especially as said owner was initially insulted for not preparing an adequate passage plan nor navigating his boat safely, not complying with SOLAS or MCA regulations - of course they specifically mention not waking off obscured dock edges, just can't quite find where, and of course bearing in mind at the time the boat was actually ashore with a keel fully out of the water. Lovely thing is I have this ludicrous comment in writing, along with the defence of "our terms and conditions say" plus two refusals (so far) to either offer a compromise offer or to provide details of their Public Liability insurance, which I think is a legal requirement.

As has been gathered I was not the dock owner, but the paying punter. I don't think I was hurt, apart from my pride (subject that is to not developing a chest infection in the next few days as I did swallow a fair amount of the River Hamble, and no doubt breathed some in too !).

One point raised by a friend that does concern me is that I was on my own and no one saw me fall in. Had I hit my head on the edge of the hard as I went in then a far worse outcome was a real possibility, as was cold shock.

I won't name the slip at this stage as I am still in two minds as to whether I am going to take them to task, but the attitude of the person who dealt with my report was simply atrocious and condescending.

I reiterate said ledge was level with the back of my boat and my boat is shorter than the maximum length the dock is stated to be fit for, and it is likely the dock is not fit for purpose and certainly needs some proper signage and a policy of informing users of the hazard.

I will return when the dock owners respond further. I accept £300 for a replacement phone is not worth instructing a lawyer for, but what if some one else suffers a similar accident with worse outcome ?

I daresay I won't be welcome back there, but hey ho, I've survived 40 years of boating so far without using their facility so not so bothered about that one.
 
Hypothetically again, let's suppose it's a yacht club. If he's a member, and continues this then I doubt that he will be next year. If he's not then he should realise that he'll probably make it impossible for other non-members to use the facility in future, and that would be a great shame. He might also find that other clubs nearby aren't too willing to allow his boat onto their hards either. Hypothetically.
 
So you’d be happy if the dock owner says I’ve had enough of this,sod this for a game of soldiers and shuts the dock?
Thus denying others the chance to boat on a budget because of your mistake.
Good way to entice people into boating eh.......A friend of mine has recently told me that one marina on The Dart doesn’t allow any diy by owners,no anti fouling,zilch.....that’s the way to make it even more expensive and elitist. No good for people like yourself who like to tinker and keep costs down.
As another poster put it,it should have been laughed off and told as a war story at the bar.

Where’s there’s blame theres a claim eh......Walks away shaking his head.
 
Flynnbarr said:
So you’d be happy if the dock owner says I’ve had enough of this,sod this for a game of soldiers and shuts the dock?
Thus denying others the chance to boat on a budget because of your mistake.
Good way to entice people into boating eh.......A friend of mine has recently told me that one marina on The Dart doesn’t allow any diy by owners,no anti fouling,zilch.....that’s the way to make it even more expensive and elitist. No good for people like yourself who like to tinker and keep costs down.
As another poster put it,it should have been laughed off and told as a war story at the bar.

Where’s there’s blame theres a claim eh......Walks away shaking his head.
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Well as you were not their and have not seen the hazard you should perhaps reserve your comments. The attitude of the person responding to me stank, as indeed does your own thread response here. No I do not want the dock shut, but I do think it perfectly fair and reasonable those responsible for it join the rest of the World as far as sensible safety precautions are concerned.

This accident was one quite literally one waiting to happen and WILL happen again to some other poor sod.
 
And exactly how did you approach the owner of the dock when demanding your pound of flesh? I'm sorry, you almost certainly went in with a hissy fit and when you didn't get what you wanted were doubly wounded by the rebuff. I'm sorry for your accident but at 40 years experience I am sure that 20 years ago you'd seen it as trivial. In fact I am convinced of it. Do not go quietly into that good night. Time to roar like a lion again eh? Man up and get on with it.
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
Hypothetically again, let's suppose it's a yacht club. If he's a member, and continues this then I doubt that he will be next year. If he's not then he should realise that he'll probably make it impossible for other non-members to use the facility in future, and that would be a great shame. He might also find that other clubs nearby aren't too willing to allow his boat onto their hards either. Hypothetically.
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Is this some kind of threat? Your first post on this thread seemed to indicate you had knowledge of where this occurred. Are you linked to the dock owner?
 
BruceK said:
And exactly how did you approach the owner of the dock when demanding your pound of flesh? I'm sorry, you almost certainly went in with a hissy fit and when you didn't get what you wanted were doubly wounded by the rebuff. I'm sorry for your accident but at 40 years experience I am sure that 20 years ago you'd seen it as trivial. In fact I am convinced of it. Do not go quietly into that good night. Time to roar like a lion again eh? Man up and get on with it.
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No - I simply and coldly explained what had happened, indeed as is required by their published rules for using the dock. All my fault according to them.
 
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