So I run a dock & a paying user comes to harm ...

[sorabain]

I'm wondering if the above is the source of misunderstanding. Perhaps the OP hadn't seen the bay at low water, or the website pic, but given the bay was stated to be good for X' and his boat was less than that he may have assumed that the bay itself was at least X' in length. If his boat was tight into the front he may have assumed there'd be plenty of room to move around the back.

In hindsight we can see flaws in this kind of reasoning, and all know the cliches around making assumptions, but perhaps we can see how an error in judgement may have come about and be surprised when he ran out of concrete.

I have no experience of this kind of operation so have no idea if it's common for such places to accept boats of a length that would overhang the ledge and prevent walking all the way around. In one of their other pics https://rafyc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/RAFYC Arial View.jpg?bwg=0 it looks like that one will have its tail over the edge, but presumably that's ok as long as the owner understands this with regards to access (the boat itself would be stable). How long is the actual concrete bit?

frankly i'm wondering if this was originally designed to be a 30' bay, but they now accept up to 40' because boats have got bigger since it was built and if people are willing to put up with the lack of access to one end of their boat it's fine and better than letting it go to waste, but perhaps the operators have become too accustomed to people having local knowledge (e.g. club members) and understanding the compromise

 

[sorabain]

What we don,t know is how often punters fall off that ledge .
But reading between the t+c,s lines they’ve had jet wash issues .

It seems a bit peculiar that their first point is

1. The steps and the base of the dock are liable to be slippery. Hold the handrail when using the steps.

which seems like common sense, especially when a handrail is present.

However, they don't mention the ledge, or that the extent on the ledge is (presumably) less than 40' and you wont be able to walk entirely around your boat.

I guess their first accident was someone falling on the steps, second was the jet washer, etc. I don't think it's much to ask that they add another point regarding dimensions, if they're willing to otherwise "state the obvious" about steps being slippery.

 

[Portofino]

Man walks along pavement, falls into unfenced hole dug by drain company. They should've fenced it.

?

https://imgur.com/a/YCtgB

It’s not a pavement ,it’s an alien new to “ man “ environment.
Ones senses should be on max tune up to the new never been on or in environment.
If the water was on the blue line in the pic ^^^ then ones brain looking to the RHS of the image would have seen the pilling and hopefully extrapolated for you ( like it does using binocular vision to judge range ) that these a distinct possibility the concrete ends there .Which it does .
Or if the water is higher at the red line , the pilling covered , your brains got the gradient marked by the red arrow to go on .
Even that alone in a should be hypersensitive rapid info processing potentially dangerous environment tell you to check the depth with a stick or something before venturing any further towards the sea !

Are you saying in Padstow on the W coast with a slipway or scrubbing posts like this ,with say the last M coverd in brown water , a normal person can expect to carry on walking safely to Australia? - without falling in ?

Your brain hopefully from your geography school days will stop you walking off in a westerly dir .

It’s marketed as a 12 M facility. So what happens @ 13 M ?? Seaward side ??

Of course a notice indicating as best where the drop off is might be helpful , as helpful as road signs and no parking signs
Signage of appropriate type is only helpful if folks read them .
Would it have prevented Trevor walking over the edge ?
How did he know the brown water bit of concrete covered by sea was smooth and safe ?
Of course you can eye ball the dry part , but as said if not reccied then dipping a blind toe into the unknown , could have been say steps or rails or any thing .In this case a drop near enough 12 M and inline with the bank on the RHS .

 

[Portofino]

perhaps the operators have become too accustomed to people having local knowledge (e.g. club members) and understanding the compromise

Yup really need to know how often none club members use the facility.
There’s allways a 1 st time for every accident which should be the last time , but as you know life’s not like that .

 

[superheat6k]

I didn't come on here expecting all would agree with my position. I have found at least two forumites response somewhat distasteful, and the insults from one are beyond the decency normally enjoyed on here, but fortunately I do not cow tow to veiled threats, indeed such will galvanise my attitude to take them on.

I have also learnt quite a lot the past couple of days about dock safety and obligations of commercial dock owners.

I did mention this event has hacked me off. Today Boadicea has been listed with a broker - that is just how much I am hacked off.

I can neither confirm nor deny the location, but due to the attitude of the dock owner it sadly looks like the matter will now be escalated, and as such I cannot discuss the matter further.

 

[BruceK]

So your swan song after 40 years is preceded by a tantrum and concluded with an act that will ruin it for others and you think this is a graceful exit?

 

[[2068]]

So your swan song after 40 years is preceded by a tantrum and concluded with an act that will ruin it for others and you think this is a graceful exit?

 

[Assassin]

Well BruceK I tripped over your shoe lace today, shall we call it quits if you buy the beer???????????????????

 

[henryf]

I've just scanned the thread and agree that some of the replies are a bit personal which is a shame but I can easily understand the passion behind the posts.

Choosing to use piles is not something you should do lightly. There is scope for an awful lot of damage to both property and person. To that end I would see it as essential that a site visit at low water or at the very least photographic detail at low water be studied in advance. I would want to know what I was lowering my boat onto.

If you choose to use the facility without prior knowledge then I think you have to chalk it down to experience. As for the phone and no life jacket, that one's down to you as well I'm afraid.

If the piles are the same ones in the photo then it looks a pretty decent set up. Having only seen a photo I would know where everything was and where the potential dangers lay. That thin post on the right hand of the ledge is very clear indeed.

I would urge you to reconsider pursuing the matter further as it will only antagonise you more and if that is the facility in question anyone who had surveyed it in advance would know exactly where the ledge lay.

Scrubbing piles are dangerous places that should only be used by qualified individuals.

Henry

 

[sorabain]

... I did mention this event has hacked me off. Today Boadicea has been listed with a broker - that is just how much I am hacked off.

I can neither confirm nor deny the location, but due to the attitude of the dock owner it sadly looks like the matter will now be escalated, and as such I cannot discuss the matter further.

I'm sorry to hear all this. What are your best expectations if you win? I feel that it would only be a pyrrhic victory if it leaves you on the shore and if it takes legal action to get any concessions you're likely to still be left bitter that it had to go that far rather than being settled gracefully.

You didn't get to deal with a gentleman that day, but you can still leave as one, and enjoy better times on your boat.

 

[oldgit]

Its the Princple of the thing ...Yea right....

any chance of everybody taking a deep breath and counting to ten !
Suspect JFM will be reading this post and will be shaking his head well aware that this could be sorted here and now and that molehills can very quickly turn into mountains with folks shouting expensively at each other from fortifications at the summits ?
Is there nobody who can mediate and/or bang a few heads together.

 

[Firefly625]

I'm sorry to hear all this. What are your best expectations if you win? I feel that it would only be a pyrrhic victory if it leaves you on the shore and if it takes legal action to get any concessions you're likely to still be left bitter that it had to go that far rather than being settled gracefully.

You didn't get to deal with a gentleman that day, but you can still leave as one, and enjoy better times on your boat.

+100

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Superheat, if you, like a couple of others, read one of my replies as a veiled threat I'm sorry. The intention was to point out that you will become a talking point for all the clubs, slip, hard and marina operators on the river. It's a very small community and it loves gossip. I have no connection with the club, and have only ever been there once about thirty years ago. On the other hand I have used the facilities at the club next door frequently (as a non-member) and my fear that they would stop me doing that is half of what has driven me to try and persuade you to change your mind.

As I mentioned, I fell off my boat as I was mooring last year, and ended holding onto an attached line as it drifted out towards Southampton Water. I had no life jacket on, it was after five on an Autumn weekday evening and all I could do was shout for help. Luckily, two people heard me.

Entirely my own fault. If I'd thought about it I'd have had my hand held VHF in a pocket and a life jacket on and enjoyed the ride. If I'd really thought about my own safety on the river pontoons I'd have previously noticed that they all have ladders on them and could have swum five or six yards and climbed out. And finally, why didn't I have my 'phone in its waterproof bag which was lying empty in the boat? I could have 'phoned for help.

It cost me my pride, a 'phone, two bottles of good whisky and embarrassment beers to everyone that heard about it. Can't quite laugh about it though.

It's still not too late to get gossiped about as the bigger man that changed his mind. And for heaven's sake don't sell the boat.

 

[BruceK]

Well BruceK I tripped over your shoe lace today, shall we call it quits if you buy the beer???????????????????

No, you soiled my shoes and I'm suing you for a new pair plus damages. And court costs. And I'm going barefoot from now on, in public protest. Unless you plead with me to change my mind. Then I shall disdainfully ignore you while I chew myself up with thoughts of frustration, revenge and despair.

Ah, fiddlesticks. Yes lets have a beer! My round.

 

[sarabande]

Like many others, I find the negative aspects of this thread do not reflect the true colours of the forum.

OP has posted an open and personal account of an accident, which could have cost him his life. His altruism in posting will make a difference to the way that many people review the way they approach a drying out session, and that in itself is meritorious.

The accident was avoidable; of that there is no doubt. Greater transparency of the hazards by the owner (who must have known of them through long ownership of the facility), coupled with more precise and visible indications of the edge of the slip, plus a far more positive attitude to managing the risks of the slip, and a more customer friendly response to the complaint. On the other hand, the OP could have perhaps done more of his own assessing of the slip's risks, but if you buy a service, you expect to be sold something that is to a very great extent, safe and fit for its designed purpose.

The repeated and veiled comments about the Hamble community turning on the OP are despicable. They are not in the true spirit of the forum or of the wider sailing community. If anything, the users of the river should be asking why the slip owner did not take greater care in letting out his premises, and also supporting the OP in his efforts to reduce the chances of a similar accident - perhaps with more serious consequences - occurring again. This is clearly to the benefit of the slip owner and the other sailors and motor boat owners. And that should be the positive and unifying principle behind this thread.

 

[Flynnbarr]

anoccassionalyachtsmen...... I don’t see anything wrong with your posts.

 

[jrudge]

Now we have seen a pic at LW from the alleged website .
It’s clear there’s a ledge .
There’s also a weak line imho in the internet t+c,s - could be better written I guess

“[Your use of any information or materials on this website is entirely at your own risk, for which we shall not be liable. It shall be your own responsibility to ensure that any products, services or information available through this website meet your specific requirements.]”

“Services “ is what I have picked out .

Ok no obvious signage in the pic s warning of a drop - so room for improvement there definitely.

But the owner took the call Trevor says for the booking ( or his staff acting for the Co / Club ? ) presumed assuming Trevs a none member took his payment over the phone if I understand the chain of events — and automatically assumed the punter had
1- eyeballed / reconnaissance’s the site .
1- seen the web pics demonstrating the hazard .

I would have thought biggest risk is boat tipping over
Site does say “ ensure boat is properly secured “ or words to that effect .

Also there’s a lot of stuff / warning over the use of the club jetwash .
Seems like it’s taken paint off and blown back forcing folks to fall over - so the site explicitly warns about these gems .

I guess they just assume with muddy water a bit of common sense where you tread wether or not you reccied or sighted the web pic at LW .

So for me now I can see why the operators ( a none for profit club by the sounds of it offering this “ service “ as a money spinner to none members ) are,t initially to keen to accede to Trevor s request for let’s face it “compo “

I mean what are they supposed to do compo wise if a guy just slips on the mud in 1 ft of water on the actual hard bit and knackers electrical items in his pockets ?
Where do you draw the line ?

I ve got a guy who helps me in the yard @ the annual lift .
He empties his pockets and takes his expensive watch off ,leaves everything on the saloon table. Why ?
Typically
Hose pops off = drenched
Acid split = rapid rinse needed
Bucket split while lifting overhead showering contents
Diesel spilt in the ER changing filters
Old oil ends up on everything .
AF splatter .
The list goes on

We where old clothes and footwear that normally at the end of the week just chuck in the skip

Point is he’s not asking for replacement s etc or any compo —- it’s an all risks on you helping ,no liability on me or the yard the mess we make and tools we knacker ,clothes we trash , chemicals exposed ,inhaled etc .

If I fell in those circumstances - having seen the pic afterwards - I would be too embarrassed to seek financial redress with the operator.
Certainly would not kick up a fuss .

What we don,t know is how often punters fall off that ledge .
But reading between the t+c,s lines they’ve had jet wash issues .

I have just read this lot and this post does seem to sum it up rather well.

If the pictures are indeed of the location the edge of the concrete is in line with the obvious visible edge so I would assume most people would assume that the pad stopped there. If it did not then it would itself represent a hazard to boats navigating.

I can feel for the Op and his wounded pride but to wander round a muddy part submerged dock without knowing it well, and then not wearing a life jacket simply seems unwise.

Like Portos maintenance man the first thing i do if doing pretty much anything on the boat is take keys, money , phone etc out of my pocket. Been there done that as i am sure many of us have. Ask Pete M all about car keys ....

The way they dealt with it may or may not be less than desirable. If someone came into the office blaming them for him falling in the water and breaking his phone and asking for compensation and a 50% reduction in fees I am not sure that many of us on here would give an entirely positive reaction.

As to then selling your boat over it ...

Deep breath, say sorry and move on. Each to their own of course.

Some on here have asked " what if he died". Well yes H and S would I assume have taken a look. I would imagine part of their findings would be man goes into wet muddy area with no lifejacket, no tether and no one else looking on / supervising in case of incident. Safety is not a one way street - and as boat owners with people on board we all know that.

 

[TangaraToo]

W
It is only then he observes on the furthest post, closest to and facing the shore is a notice warning of a ledge.

I might be missing something here as only used scrubbing posts once but to secure the boat I would expect the OP to have passed a rope around the front post and been within inches of the sign?

 

[BruceK]

I'm sorry I just cant stay out of this. I just cant help but feel that those trying to put forward a rational balanced argument cant see the wood for two opposing trees. You can legislate and push liability of a service to death without being cognisant of the fact that life just simply has inherent risk. The councils provide a service with pedestrian pavements with cars just inches away on the roads buzzing by merrily and fast enough and heavy enough to kill you. And they are deemed suitable for children through to the elderly. From the fit to the frail. But we accept this without having crash barriers and guard rails. We have marinas with pontoons with no safety equipment to protect you from stumbling into the water as you make your way back from an evening meal and drinks. We accept this. We rush headlong at 50 -70mph in the dark driving our cars on dipped beams unable to see clearly within our braking distance. Life is full of risks and we accept them and deal with them. This thread is not as Sarabande would have you believe an altruistic posting by a well meaning individual highlighting the dangers of a drying out session. Dont be so naive. It was to garner support and salve some dignity pursuant of a complaint. The service here was to use a facility. The hazards are obvious. The dock is fit for purpose. It's not a dry dock, it's a drying dock. It is open on one end. Period. I look at the picture and the symmetry is quite clear even without the white marker stick. Sure it could be better, but it is perfectly adequate. To make an argument that draws in both parties in shared blame is nothing in my minds eye but a bullying tactic in the blame culture that has enveloped us. In my view there is no middle ground, it all one sided with a bias of appeasement to the "victim" (of his own short sightedness). The owner of the service was not simply asked to put in signage, it was delivered with a demand for compensation. And the consensus was he is expected to bend over backwards to mollify an awkward customer. Is this owner known to be an irascible and rude person /entity? What would provoke him to be so? What nonsense. The world and it's people on not personal lackeys to your whim and desire nor beholden to your sensibilities just because you threw a few shekels in the bowl and received exactly what you paid for, no more and no less. This policy of appeasement and mediation is wholly misguided and serves no purpose but to pave the way for the next chancer to try it on.

 

[superheat6k]

The thought of selling Boadicea has been one I had been brooding over for some time, mostly due to lack of use. The incident last Sunday had left a bitter taste as to why I am bothering. However, the sun came out this week, and I realised why I bother.

So the incident was not a principle reason for selling, but is more a straw that could have broke the camel's back as it were.

To answer a few specifics I have notified the organisation that I shall not trouble them further with this, but have suggested they do need to seriously consider the safety of their slip, and have referred them to current HSE guidelines.

To answer the specific observation of Henryf re the metal post - you are quite correct is is very visible - er, until that is a 44' yacht takes up position between my boat on the south side and the post on the north side. Further to this I was also to the south side of my own boat when I fell in.

So perhaps I shall now take Bruce's advice and man up, accept I messed up and made a Bruce of myself.

I might still sell, purely for reasons of sensible economies. Not for a silly trip off a dock ledge.