So, broker or no broker?

[prv]

I'm a broker so here's some advice if you go down the diy route.

Thanks. Given the advice here so far, I probably will go DIY, but for the record I'm not anti-broker . I did have you in mind if I went that route, my one doubt being that I believe you're more blue-water cruisers than coastal potterers - or have I got that wrong?

Great idea to have her antifouled and in the yard. Give her a good polish too and remove as much personal kit as you can. Make her look as inviting as possible to a new owner. Remove any rust on deck fittings and trim any frayed ends on ropes etc. Consider replacing any tired running rigging.

Can't really polish - her topsides finish is hand-painted with a certain texture to it. Sounds awful, and would be on a modern-style yacht, but on a classic-style boat it looks the part (tends to fool people into thinking she's wooden ).

The plan is to remove all kit that's not included in the sale - much better to say "everything here is included" than faff about with what's staying and what's going. There's enough stuff that I either have duplicates of, would like the opportunity of replacing, or wouldn't be useful on the new boat, that I should be able to sell KS more or less fully-equipped. With the exception of lifejackets, a new buyer ought to be able to sail her off on a delivery trip without any further purchases.

She is in general in pretty good nick on deck - a few minor scratches, stains, filled screw holes etc on the fibreglass as you'd expect on a 20 year old boat, but the rigging is in good order - I wouldn't have it any other way.

ensure she comes up on search engines when people are searching by price or length not just model.

Good point. Not really sure how to reliably achieve that in a non-domain-specific search like Google, but I'll make sure my copy caters to people searching for something other than "Cornish Yawl".

I have a friend who does (or did) SEO type stuff, so might ask for a few pointers from him. I have a rough idea how this kind of stuff works.

Buyers will want original documents with at least five years worth of Bills of Sale. Current in date registration. Original (not copy) VAT invoice showing clear reference to the boat, a VAT number and the amount of VAT accounted for and if applicable the RCD certificate. (usually in the owners manual)

Got bills of sale and current (and previous) SSR. Have the original invoice on Cornish Crabbers' printed form. Boat is too old for RCD, and doesn't have an owners manual (though I'm writing a set of notes on that score to help reassure anyone who's worried that they won't know how to handle the rig)

protect your email address if you can, or set up a new one just for the boat sale.

I've just registered a whole new domain . (Not posting it here as the boat isn't actually for sale yet.)

The big red flag is someone offering to pay unseen, especially if they are gong to pay extra for delivery etc.

Yep, standard for anything advertised online.

Unfortunately there are also a lot of fender kickers around who will start off enthusiastically asking for details and wanting to view and then either not show up or refuse to answer phone calls or emails. It's currently worse than I have ever known it.

That's something I was aware of, but not looking forward to. People who just stop making contact I'm not so bothered about, but for daytime viewings during the week I'm going to have to take time out of the office so a no-show would be quite annoying.

When you get a viewing go down to the boat beforehand, air her and have the lights on and all the instruments running so you can demonstrate them working.

Yep, all obvious stuff. My one concern is that there's no power in the yard, so keeping the battery charged if she's there for a while could be problematic. I use a portable generator for power tools in the winter, but I don't really want to go down there and run it for a day to get a full charge in. May have no option. I also usually take all the cushions etc out for the winter, but would have to leave them in this time as she looks a bit bleak without them.

When you get an acceptable offer use a sale and purchase agreement. Ensure everybody knows at the outset how the deposit and survey time frame will work

Good point. I know how this stuff usually works, but having a written agreement ready is a good idea.

Some buyers are less happy handing over deposits to private individuals they do not know, so you could use a Broker to hold the deposit in Escrow or a Marine Solicitor.

An issue I hadn't considered. Well - I only know one broker . If I do find myself with a buyer who's wary of giving me a deposit, could I get in touch with you to handle that part for a small fee?

Best of luck.

Thanks

Pete

 

[jonic]

Sounds like you are all set Pete.

PM me an email address, age and exact model and I will send you some actual sold price data.

Midweek viewers tend to be the best, as they will 99% of the time be serious.

Weekends are where the just looking type will show up. However you will have to treat each one as if they are serious.

Some will be interested in another yacht further away, or not buying for another year or two and will be looking at yours with no intention of buying it......But they will be very convincing

Ask if they have a boat to sell first, but you have to be polite and wary of seeming unhelpful.

That's why it's also better to have a refundable deposit and written offer before offering a test sail otherwise you can have a lovely time taking people sailing for the afternoon, but use your judgement.

In your case, because of the type of boat, you are less likely to be messed around.

Contracts wise, if you are an RYA member you can download their Sale and Purchase Contract and an MCA Bill of Sale.

For advertising consider using Apollo Duck, YBW and the Yacht Market as that will widen your audience. A single website will only be found by those specifically searching for your type of boat and probably 50% of my sales are from buyers who were looking for something else to begin with!

Hope it all goes well and with Southampton Boat Show looming now is the ideal time to get started.

(I concentrate on Blue Water and High Quality Cruisers so you would have qualified I have just sold a nice Folkboat in Lymington. But If you need help later with deposits and contracts I also have a conveyancing only service .)

All the best

John

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

Plan A - diy.
Plan B - use a Broker.


IMO a decent website (on content) will cut down the hassle from "timewasters" - a term often applied simply to folk wanting information any sane person would need before even visiting a boat, let alone handing over cash! If the info is available folk don't need to ask (just update it with the answers to questions you forgot to answer!).

I personally would not be too worried about own URL - a boat sale specific e-mail address is a good idea though - punters will come from the links you post in places the punters will look, not principally from Mr Google etc.

Cash handling? If the value of the boat is non too great, then I would even consider not bothering with a deposit! (or failing that dropping it to a nominal sum). If someone is serious enough to sign a contract with a fixed end date then IMO worth a punt to see what happens at the end - especially if they are paying for a surveyor and / or a haul out fee (if applicable) as in my book someone spending a few hundreds (if not a bit more) that they will not be getting back says the person is serious - or a complete and utter idiot!

With a deadline (no survey inside a week? - with a survey 2 weeks?) then you don't really lose much if the sale does not happen, apart from time. You might not be able to sell the boat under contract, but that doesn't mean it comes off the market / you can't show her to others. In practice likely won't have lots of people to fend off anyway.

IMO the big advantages an Owner has over a broker is that they can put some time & effort into a sale, they know the boat backwards - and are more likely to offer to take a prospective buyer out for a trip (even if not a seatrial under a signed contract) as part of the sales pitch - even if no sale acheived it's not a wasted trip if you see it as simply an excuse for trip out, with the bonus of a captive audience to say how great yer boat is .

With a broker, after a squillion punters the attraction of that will have faded and likely to the point of no contract to buy = no trip out - which does (IMO) translate as wanting someone to risk money on buying a pig in a poke. A good business approach for a broker - not so much for a buyer, even if they can later get out of the sale. and also not such a good approach for a Vendor as (with a decently priced product) sales is simply a numbers game - like being a Terrorist you only need to be "lucky" once But instead of relying on luck can also use smarts and some effort to cut the numbers down before you succeed.

 

[prv]

PM me an email address, age and exact model and I will send you some actual sold price data.

Will do - thanks.

For advertising consider using Apollo Duck, YBW and the Yacht Market as that will widen your audience. A single website will only be found by those specifically searching for your type of boat

Oh, absolutely, that was always the plan. The website is to let people find out more once they've found the listing on another site. A lot of listing sites don't quite seem to have figured out that they're not printing on paper, disk space is cheap, and there's no need to limit things to a couple of paragraphs and half a dozen pictures. (Brokers' sites are usually but not always better in this regard.)

Hope it all goes well and with Southampton Boat Show looming now is the ideal time to get started.

Well, apart from getting some advice and sorting out hosting for a web site, I'm not quite getting started yet . Still a bit of this season left and I want to make the most of it.

If you need help later with deposits and contracts I also have a conveyancing only service

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind.

Pete

 

[Zagato]

Pete, having followed the market and contacted brokers/buyers/sellers and other Cornish Yawl/Crabber owners also by forums, the main thing for a successful sale is to advertise with a realistic price. I followed up on a few Cornish Yawls that were advertised for 26-28K CRAZY and the brokers don't help, they should be advising to at least put the boats up at the correct price. Eventually the owners reduce the prices 3-5K and they start to shift, the ones that haven't are still for sale after months to over a year on the market.

Cornish Yawls range from 17-24K
Cornish Crabbers 24-25K for early 1995 ropey ones. Although an early one in nice, original condition that hasn't been messed about with by Mr DIY will fetch 28K

The main problem with selling at the moment is that it's a buyers market (luckily most people don't seem to know how to haggle or have that ruthlessness like me to haggle!) so it's best not to be in a position to have to sell something (like your parents seem not to be as you have been saying about selling KS previously in 1-2 years time!).

On the flip side you will always get the guy who only looks at 2 or 3 adverts, only looks at your boat because he can't be bothered to travel 200 miles to view others or get them transported back, looks at yours as it's the only local one, falls in love with it only knocks you down by 1K and thank you very much you have just made a very nice lucky sale.

The forum Andy is talking about is The Crabber Club which I have given a link to you before but it's on Cornish Crabbers own site (surprised you havn't joined it's been growing rapidly since since I got a few members over from here after doing the Yawl research, were orgainising a rally next year and meet this year) not sure about advertising your boat however, as they may see it as competition for their brokerage but you could always put a sly post up like this one showing your intention to sell

And no I wouldn't bother with a broker, waste of money, you can advertise it just as well, you can sell it better in person as you know the boat and are fully motivated to do so and the transaction can be safely done - funds transferred by electronic transfer as you know!

I think Brokers/Estate Agents etc are becoming less necessary to most as web sites take over...

 

[prv]

Cornish Yawls range from 17-24K

That doesn't quite accord with what my confidential industry intelligence tells me

(See Jonic's kind offer further up the page.)

Not going to discuss it any further as the brokers' past sales database is not for general sharing.

Just don't want you setting expectations for my potential buyers. You've bought your Crabber, now gerroutovit

Pete

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

That doesn't quite accord with what my confidential industry intelligence tells me

Likely that was Yachtworld. and without intending to offend any Brokers, do need to bear in mind that info only as reliable as the source.

Given that many (not all) brokers struggle to match listings to reality and many are not reknowned for effort until they have the firm smell of cash in their grasp, then might want to consider how likely folks would be to update the figures from asking price to reality upon sale - given no money involved in them doing so. and add in a self interest in raising expectations (not working that easily with boats being a seperate matter ) IMO have a perfect excuse for many to do SFA

and of course ignores boats sold privately, or not via Yachtworld.

Not saying to give her away!, but bear in mind that asking too much may require a long (self) education. at own cost.

 

[jonic]

Really?

Does a website....

Check your title paperwork
Check your vat status paperwork
Check your RCD status paperwork
Check your registration paperwork
Recover lost paperwork or organise certified copies
Have real time knowledge of actual achieved selling prices in addition to asking prices
Write your boat's particulars in a way that sells
Photograph the boat professionally in a way that sells
Make a video of the boat in a way that sells
Email those details to registered active buyers looking for a boat like yours
Ring the buyer who has asked to be informed when a boat like yours comes up
Market your boat by telephone
Market your boat face to face
Market your boat on broker only websites like yachtworld.com
Market your boat at boatshows
Continuously look for PR opportunities for your boat
Pass your boat's details to a network of co-brokers in a different geographic location
Buy specific, targeted advertising on your behalf
Answer telephone enquiries about your boat
Answer email enquiries about your boat
Pick up viewers from the airport or train station
Take people to see your boat and demonstrate its features in a way that sells
Take people to see your boat who came in to look at another boat and suggest yours is more suitable
Prepare and air your boat before each viewing
Weed out the scammers and money launderers
Negotiate a price
Draw up a legal contract with conditions specific to you, the boat and the buyer
Hold the deposit securely for both sides
Carry insurance for both sides
Carry out a seatrial
Arrange the survey
Arrange the lift
Attend the survey
Negotiate with the surveyor and buyer after survey
Help with quotes and repairs recommend by the surveyor
Amend the contract with new terms after survey
Process the balance payment securely for both sides
Ensure title is passed correctly and draw up the Bill of Sale
Provide a new paper trail for both sides
Assist with registration and ships radio license transfer
Arrange finance
Arrange insurance
Help find a berth
Buy the drinks on handover ?


Lots of homemade websites with unsold boats at the moment.

in a tough market a skilled and professional yacht broker can be worth his weight in gold.


... but what would I know.

 

[V1701]

Really?

Does a website....

Check your title paperwork
Check your vat status paperwork
Check your RCD status paperwork
Check your registration paperwork
Recover lost paperwork or organise certified copies
Have real time knowledge of actual achieved selling prices in addition to asking prices
Write your boat's particulars in a way that sells
Photograph the boat professionally in a way that sells
Make a video of the boat in a way that sells
Email those details to registered active buyers looking for a boat like yours
Ring the buyer who has asked to be informed when a boat like yours comes up
Market your boat by telephone
Market your boat face to face
Market your boat on broker only websites like yachtworld.com
Market your boat at boatshows
Continuously look for PR opportunities for your boat
Pass your boat's details to a network of co-brokers in a different geographic location
Buy specific, targeted advertising on your behalf
Answer telephone enquiries about your boat
Answer email enquiries about your boat
Pick up viewers from the airport or train station
Take people to see your boat and demonstrate its features in a way that sells
Take people to see your boat who came in to look at another boat and suggest yours is more suitable
Prepare and air your boat before each viewing
Weed out the scammers and money launderers
Negotiate a price
Draw up a legal contract with conditions specific to you, the boat and the buyer
Hold the deposit securely for both sides
Carry insurance for both sides
Carry out a seatrial
Arrange the survey
Arrange the lift
Attend the survey
Negotiate with the surveyor and buyer after survey
Help with quotes and repairs recommend by the surveyor
Amend the contract with new terms after survey
Process the balance payment securely for both sides
Ensure title is passed correctly and draw up the Bill of Sale
Provide a new paper trail for both sides
Assist with registration and ships radio license transfer
Arrange finance
Arrange insurance
Help find a berth
Buy the drinks on handover ?


Lots of homemade websites with unsold boats at the moment.

in a tough market a skilled and professional yacht broker can be worth his weight in gold.


... but what would I know.

I would hazard a wild guess that most brokers don't do that lot, especially for a "low" value boat. Your good self excluded of course...

 

[Zagato]

Lol, sorry Pete, didn't want to spoil your pitch....but anyone can easily see and research what particular boats sell for. I just go the whole extra mile on research etc, think I need to get a proper job but I have fun researching and making money out of buying and selling classic cars, bikes etc as a hobby.!

My Father has always put a sale sign on any car/boat he owns as soon as he buys it to make a profit and every now and then somebody will come along and he's made a nice cut with which he can go window shopping again. I have just taken it to a different level with bigger sums involved, boys and there toys eh! Research pays off though, I made 10K out of my last classic car and as you know my Crabber was a steal

Jonic, agreed if the seller can't do basic things like write an advert, advertise the item in the right arena, show an item to a prospective buyer and see a transaction through then they will definitely need the services of a broker - and I know where you are coming from, how many times do you see poorly written adverts and it's incredible how bad people are at showing you around their car/boat for sale whilst not giving basic information or having it to hand and then it comes to the money, you would think people would be over joyed to have 30K securely deposited into their account within minutes or a couple of hours. I'm not being sarcastic, I have dealt with these idiots when trying to buy items and have walked away as the item wasn't advertised accurately, they couldn't tell me on the viewing the information I needed and they wouldn't accept guaranteed money into their account - unbelievable, talk about time wasting buyers, what about the sellers

Brokers/Estate agents will always have their place but it's all so easy to do yourself if you have a modicum of nounce and a decent camera for pretty pictures!

 

[jonic]

I would hazard a wild guess that most brokers don't do that lot, especially for a "low" value boat. Your good self excluded of course...

 

[prv]

a decent camera for pretty pictures!

http://www.whattheduck.net/strip/95

Pete

 

[Shuggy]

Please tell me how wishing to get info including how to fix ones' boat, photo's and descriptions of modifications, news of similar boats' travels, meet people of a similar mind etc is an any way illogical ?

Your logic does not make sense. Your original bizarre statement implied that anyone not joining an association did not care about their boat. That's not what the above says.

 

[Simondjuk]

We've just sold our boat sans broker. We used the cunning ploys of correct spelling, accurate information and meaningful photos in our ads, most or all of which many brokers seem not to employ.

John's excellent examples are a notable exception. Find a boat that's on with him and another broker, compare their ads side by side, and immediately it's obvious why John sells boats.


Pete,

Why not take the battery home to keep it charged up ready for viewings? Bit of a pain, but no big deal I wouldn't have thought.

 

[prv]

Why not take the battery home to keep it charged up ready for viewings? Bit of a pain, but no big deal I wouldn't have thought.

Partly because it's on a Smartgauge system, which has dire warnings about doing things to the batteries behind the smartgauge's back. Well, not that dire, it's supposed to get itself back into sync after a full cycle or two, but removing power from the monitor, taking the battery away and charging it, then connecting it back up does seem likely to upset the thing.

Also because the batteries are a bit of a bugger to get in and out

Pete

 

[Seajet]

Your logic does not make sense. Your original bizarre statement implied that anyone not joining an association did not care about their boat. That's not what the above says.

Shuggy,

you are trying to twist my words.

I do say that people who own any certain type of boat are not making the most of it, or quite possibly are unaware of any issues, if they can't be bothered to join an owners' association if it exists for that design.

In the case of the Anderson 22 - which I run the association for - there is a lot of information to be had, including a safety critical warning about the forestay attachment, how to inspect it, how to modify it, and people willing to do the fix for one...

There is also a private forum for members where one can chat with other owners varying from ship Captains and Pilots to novices on their first season, and detail photo's of modifications people have done.

I also offer the original builders' fit out plans on disc at cost price, and plans to make winter storage trestles for free, plus a 12 page 'top tips' guide with accumulated experience of owners.

Owners in the same area can organise get-togethers via the private forum.

We also have a spares section including new keels.

Not joining an association for a design doesn't necessarily mean an owner is careless, but it does show an uninvolved attitude and unwillingness to learn the lessons of others.

So the uninvolved person needs to be as good as they apparently think they are, or think any repairs will make up for the association fee they have dodged.

I'd say this is reasonably unlikely in the case of the Anderson 22 as I ask £7.00 P.A. to help towards site hosting and ink / postage fees for snail-mail members, and run at a considerable loss, a labour of love.

So anyone buying an Anderson can make their own mind up if this is good value or not.

This association is by no means unique, similar backup ( probably excluding keels ) is available for a lot of boats.

I think it foolish to pass up such available backup, but it's entirely up to the individual owner, they might be able to get on well without it, that's up to them.

 

[Shuggy]

Shuggy,

you are trying to twist my words.

I do say that people who own any certain type of boat are not making the most of it, or quite possibly are unaware of any issues, if they can't be bothered to join an owners' association if it exists for that design.

Not true. You said (and I quote):

"not joining the association for any design implies a lack of care about the boat."

I'm trying to twist nothing. I just dislike non-sequiturs.

 

[Seajet]

Not true. You said (and I quote):

"not joining the association for any design implies a lack of care about the boat."

I'm trying to twist nothing. I just dislike non-sequiturs.

You can dislike garden pruning tools as much as you like

If you think ignoring heaps of advice and info' about a boat design one owns, when such info is available, is sensible that's up to you.

It does imply a lack of care or more likely an arrogant attitude, history would say these rarely result in a happy ending...

It's not rocket science, why are you making out anything other, does your class association charge some incredible fee, or are you just the type who won't accept info from anyone else ?!

 

[prv]

I know the person who started a thread doesn't own it and get to boss everyone else around, but I do wish the pair of you would take your pointless bickering elsewhere

Pete

 

[Seajet]

I know the person who started a thread doesn't own it and get to boss everyone else around, but I do wish the pair of you would take your pointless bickering elsewhere

Pete

Pete,

I apologise for my part and wish this hadn't happened, can't speak for the other bod who seemed to misunderstand me.

However I still don't see why my advice to look to class associations is such a bad thing, what seems common sense to one is apparently the Devils' own utterings to another !

Andy