Snubber length and size vs size of yacht (length/weight) and mixed rode experiences

[Neeves]

There is, I think, an acceptance amongst some members that a snubber as part of the anchor rode is advantageous. For those that use snubbers regularly what do they find is an acceptable snubber, rope type (construction and fibre type), size (diameter) for their yacht (defining, weight and lengths). Some people use mixed rodes, chain and rope, and consequently use quite long (?) lengths of rope. The rope is in effect a snubber - what feed back can they offer?

Jonathan

 

[LittleSister]

I can add little to your survey. Rarely have I suffered significant jolting to snub.

Due to a combination of cowardice, luck and particular home waters (I mean, of course, superior seamanship and meticulous planning) I can't remember ever anchoring in wild conditions. Keeping clear of other boats, or the fairways and the shore, in sometimes restricted spaces has been the main challenge.

My early boats were tiny, 16 and 17 foot, later 22 foot, and I found my 5m chain and the rest rope (self-snubbing?) were only challenging in the amount of swinging room needed. (Well, once in the Scilly Isles I had to warn off a bigger boat from dropping its anchor a 'normal' (i.e. chain rode) distance away from me, but where I estimated my own anchor already was.)

Later I had a 23 footer (no windlass) with maybe 25 to 30 metres of chain, followed by a similar length of 12mm nylon rope. (10mm would have been adequate, but too thin to handle.) Once I had belatedly discovered that isolating the chain eliminated the sound of the chain 'grumbling' as the boat moved around (I quite liked the sound, but the First Mate didn't), I typically let out all the chain and the first few feet of rope. (I don't think I'd ever had it all out.) On occasion there wasn't enough room to let out all the chain I'd use whatever spare line was to hand (nylon by preference) as a snubber. I had a chain hook, but it was sometimes hiding, and was 8mm and tended to drop off my 7mm chain, so at times the snubber was tied directly to the chain.

I've more recently acquired a boat with a windlass, and have temporarily persisted with the above arrangement, mainly to take the load off the windlass.

I recently found a 7mm chain hook to buy. It's a proprietary hook from an anchor maker (Mantus?) with a plastic catch to hold it on the chain. That the manufacturers have now modified the design of the hook, and the agent gave me free a spare plastic catch, leads me to suspect the plastic catch arrangement is not the most durable.

Having been persuaded by your own and others' advice about the advantage of a long snubber that is brought back along the side decks and cleated off near the stern (all those I mentioned above were tied off on the foredeck) I have been planning to buy for the next season a long length of 3-ply 12mm nylon specifically for the purpose. Only yesterday I was pondering what length I should allow for between the bow roller and the chain (in addition to the c6m down the side deck), and I look forward to reading others' experience and views.

 

[Neeves]

Little Sister,

Please don't feel bad that your anchorages have proven to have little need for snubbers. To me your experiences sound - as anchoring should be. Its not meant to be a challenge but a pleasure. I read of people claiming to have sat out named storms at anchor and I have 2 thoughts, 'don't these people listen to weather forecasts' and 'what an example of bad seamanship'. One does make decisions that turn out to be wrong - but named storms should not figure - but maybe they exaggerate.

Jonathan

 

[tonybarebones]

I can add little to your survey. Rarely have I suffered significant jolting to snub.

Due to a combination of cowardice, luck and particular home waters (I mean, of course, superior seamanship and meticulous planning) I can't remember ever anchoring in wild conditions. Keeping clear of other boats, or the fairways and the shore, in sometimes restricted spaces has been the main challenge.

My early boats were tiny, 16 and 17 foot, later 22 foot, and I found my 5m chain and the rest rope (self-snubbing?) were only challenging in the amount of swinging room needed. (Well, once in the Scilly Isles I had to warn off a bigger boat from dropping its anchor a 'normal' (i.e. chain rode) distance away from me, but where I estimated my own anchor already was.)

Later I had a 23 footer (no windlass) with maybe 25 to 30 metres of chain, followed by a similar length of 12mm nylon rope. (10mm would have been adequate, but too thin to handle.) Once I had belatedly discovered that isolating the chain eliminated the sound of the chain 'grumbling' as the boat moved around (I quite liked the sound, but the First Mate didn't), I typically let out all the chain and the first few feet of rope. (I don't think I'd ever had it all out.) On occasion there wasn't enough room to let out all the chain I'd use whatever spare line was to hand (nylon by preference) as a snubber. I had a chain hook, but it was sometimes hiding, and was 8mm and tended to drop off my 7mm chain, so at times the snubber was tied directly to the chain.

I've more recently acquired a boat with a windlass, and have temporarily persisted with the above arrangement, mainly to take the load off the windlass.

I recently found a 7mm chain hook to buy. It's a proprietary hook from an anchor maker (Mantus?) with a plastic catch to hold it on the chain. That the manufacturers have now modified the design of the hook, and the agent gave me free a spare plastic catch, leads me to suspect the plastic catch arrangement is not the most durable.

Having been persuaded by your own and others' advice about the advantage of a long snubber that is brought back along the side decks and cleated off near the stern (all those I mentioned above were tied off on the foredeck) I have been planning to buy for the next season a long length of 3-ply 12mm nylon specifically for the purpose. Only yesterday I was pondering what length I should allow for between the bow roller and the chain (in addition to the c6m down the side deck), and I look forward to reading others' experience and views.

Think of using a...

“Chum sometimes called an Angel”

Essentially it’s a weight lowered down the anchor chain or rode to dampen the snatching loads...

I made mine by casting lead in an aluminium saucepan and adding a tang whilst the lead is still molten...

It’s real spooky forcing the stainless tang into the much heavier lead...

I made mine about 5 Kg to which I can add extra 3 Kg weights if necessary...

There is, I think, an acceptance amongst some members that a snubber as part of the anchor rode is advantageous. For those that use snubbers regularly what do they find is an acceptable snubber, rope type (construction and fibre type), size (diameter) for their yacht (defining, weight and lengths). Some people use mixed rodes, chain and rope, and consequently use quite long (?) lengths of rope. The rope is in effect a snubber - what feed back can they offer?

Jonathan

 

[RJJ]

I use a boat-length of nylon dockline attached to a stainless hook. Hitherto I have attached directly to the bow cleat; I intending to try your tip of leading it aft.

50m chain plus 45m polyester 3-strand rode. I was persuaded of polyester on grounds of durability. As long as I have 20m of rope deployed, it's giving me as much stretch as a boat-length of nylon.

 

[vyv_cox]

Mine is nominally 12 mm, nearer 11 mm, doublebraid nylon. I have owned it for many years and use it every time we anchor overnight, i.e. frequently. It is saved from chafe by taking it over the second bow roller.
Most often I let the hook out to below the water level and attach it to a bow cleat, giving me 2-3 metres. In stronger winds I attach it to the midships cleat, adding around 5 metres.
The history of this rope may be interesting. Years ago I worked briefly at the Electricity Council Research Centre. They had had a large balloon, which I never saw, that was to be used to conduct experiments in thunderstorms. For reasons that can be imagined this did not work out. The balloon was attached to the ground with this rope, about a kilometre long. With the abandonment of the project the rope was free to anyone who wanted it and at one time I owned about 30 metres of it.

 

[duncan99210]

We use a double leg snubber attached by a hook to the chain. It’s about 10m long in total (5m each leg, so the hook goes below the water for the most part. It’s made of 14mm octoplait type nylon rope with eyes spliced into each end. We use the forward cleats to attach it to the boat, which is 12m long and weighs about 8 tonnes.
Takes most of the snatching out of the motion in a wind and removes the load from the winch.

 

[BabaYaga]

Some people use mixed rodes, chain and rope, and consequently use quite long (?) lengths of rope. The rope is in effect a snubber - what feed back can they offer?

I use a mixed rode, 20 metres of 8mm chain followed by 45 metres of 14mm multi plait nylon, for my 29 foot sail boat, 3.6 tons.
In typical anchoring depths of 4 to 5 metres and light weather I would deploy all the chain plus a few metres of rope – so no snubber effect but also no need for one (rope rather than chain on the bow roller always preferred for noise reasons).
In windier conditions I would pay out more and more rope, thereby progressively increasing the snubber effect. I have been sitting out gales on 45 metres of rode and been reasonably comfortable, I imagine the elasticity of the 25 meter of rope must have been part of it.
The only conditions I can think of where this setup would work less well would be shallow water and restricted swinging room – not the ideal place to be in a gale anyway.

 

[Boathook]

My chain snubber is a hook and about 5m of mooring line. I only have 20m of 8mm chain and then around 50m of 14mm rope. The snubber is only really used in shallow and sheltered waters and is just made of on the foredeck cleat. I will try in future to use a longer rope on the snubber but the foredeck layout doesn't lend itself easily to this. I have noticed in strong winds with all chain and plenty of rope out that you do see the rope stretch quite a bit and just go in a straight line to the chain and persumably then the anchor.

 

[NormanS]

Little Sister,

Please don't feel bad that your anchorages have proven to have little need for snubbers. To me your experiences sound - as anchoring should be. Its not meant to be a challenge but a pleasure. I read of people claiming to have sat out named storms at anchor and I have 2 thoughts, 'don't these people listen to weather forecasts' and 'what an example of bad seamanship'. One does make decisions that turn out to be wrong - but named storms should not figure - but maybe they exaggerate.

Jonathan

Jonathan, as you know, we sail on the West Coast of Scotland, and always pay attention to weather forecasts. Forecasts which incidentally are so superior to what used to be available. As a result, when we know that there is bad weatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweaweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweaweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwwweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweaweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweaweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweweatweaweatweweatweaweatwweatweaweatweweatweaweatweatweaweatweweatweaweat (I don'tknow what happened there, but when I try to delete, it just grows). Anyway, as I was saying, when we get a bad forecast, and yes sometimes up to "Named Storms", we can, and do, choose to go to particular anchorages which we know will give reasonable shelter and reliable holding. Tell me what I'm doing wrong. How is that " bad seamanship"?
I don't normally use a snubber at all, merely a stopper to take the load off the windlass. But then I use adequate size chain, have a boat where all the windage isn't forward, and doesn't skitter about. Different ships - different long splices.

 

[dom]

My technique (50' 12.5 ton boat, Spade anchor) is to use two 12mm nylon lines of around 12m and 15m in length. The shorter one has a spliced loop at one end. If I expect all hell to break loose I'll go up to 16mm with one snubber.

If expecting a blow:

1. Anchor at about 3x scope​

2. Wait until I'm happy the anchor is properly dug in​

3. Release some more chain to ensure correct final scope (I rarely go over 5x)​

3. Attach the two snubber lines to the chain with rolling hitches and drop the 12m one over one bow cleat.​

4. Release chain until the attached snubber becomes tight, then connect other one to opposite bow cleat.​

5. Release another 1-2m of chain.​

6. Open a beer and a packet of crisps ​

7. It is often possible reduce excess yaw by tweaking bridle if necessary​

This may seem unduly messy, but once sorted, it's so much softer and calmer!

​

​

 

[vyv_cox]

I use a mixed rode, 20 metres of 8mm chain followed by 45 metres of 14mm multi plait nylon, for my 29 foot sail boat, 3.6 tons.
In typical anchoring depths of 4 to 5 metres and light weather I would deploy all the chain plus a few metres of rope – so no snubber effect but also no need for one (rope rather than chain on the bow roller always preferred for noise reasons).
In windier conditions I would pay out more and more rope, thereby progressively increasing the snubber effect. I have been sitting out gales on 45 metres of rode and been reasonably comfortable, I imagine the elasticity of the 25 meter of rope must have been part of it.
The only conditions I can think of where this setup would work less well would be shallow water and restricted swinging room – not the ideal place to be in a gale anyway.

I find it astonishing how much elasticity there is in Anchorplait. When I use my kedge anchor, 5 metres of 8 mm chain, the rest 16 mm Anchorplait, the stretch is remarkable, 1-2 metres on about 20. The 16 mm is way over what is needed, selected on feel, not strength.

 

[Neeves]

Norman - what you do is what we do - we seek shelter from the named storm and don't post we survived that (famous) named storm - because it would ne untrue as we were not actually subject to the named storm.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Our snubber practice, a bridle so 2 snubbers, has developed. Our snubbers now are secured to the bridle plate (or hook if we were using a single snubber). We then run to the bow where we have turning blocks I specifically installed for the purpose. The turning blocks allow the snubbers to then be run down the side decks to clutches at the transom (we could use a 'V' cleat but we had two spare clutches). We then run to blocks on the transom, like spinnaker blocks and to sheet winches. The snubber arms are 30m long. Normally we simply use 15m, 10m down the decks and 5m each side to the central bridle plate - if the wind and any accompanying chop + swell develop we simply deploy more snubber - to a maximum of 30m. Many of our anchorages are open to the Tasman and swell can creep round headlands. We usually have plenty of room.

We historically used recycled 12mm climbing rope were so impressed with the 'performance' we bought 2 new 30m lengths, again of 12mm. On reflection we might have bought new 10mm snubbers - but the 12mm original snubbers worked so well - we stuck with what we knew.

Our rode is 6mm x 70m of high tensile chain, Armorgalv coated, we have been using the chain for 4 years now - with no issues. We normally would anchor with a depth of about 5m and a scope of 5:1. The idea that cats can anchor in shallow water is obviously true - but waves build up as the water shallows - and it can be most uncomfortable and we aim for about 5m depth.

We do have a chain lock - in case a snubber fails - it is a simple hook, attached by dyneema to a strong point. We use the same hook (and dyneema) to secure the anchor and chain when on passage.

If the truth be known we use a mixed rode - but in a different format to the common understanding.

We leave our bridle permanently installed and store the extra rope in a bag on the lifelines, stored as you might store spare sheets.

Our cat is 38' x 22'6" with a 3'3" draft and we would weight, at a maximum in full cruising mode, full of water and fuel (including a crew of 2) at around 7t.

Though we run to the sheet winches - which allows anyone to release or retrieve the snubbers - you can actually do it by hand - the tensions at the transom are surprisingly light - yet if you tried to retrieve the 'unsnubbered' chain it would simply be impossible because the tensions are several 100s of kg.

A bridle has the advantage it allows the snatch loads to be shared and centralises the yacht (which reduces the snatch loads (so a real win win) but if the wind/swell and tide are not in alignment a snubber does allow you to alter the direction in which the yacht lies to give the most comfortable position, simply allowing one arm to be slightly longer (or shorter) than the other - as Dom says above.

Jonathan

We power set the anchor, using the chain and the chain lock - we do not attach the snubber/bridle until we have completed the power set. Attaching the snubbers prior to power setting means the engine power is simply stretching the snubbers ( and reducing their life) and really you want all the power to be focussed at the anchor.

 

[NormanS]

We normally

Norman - what you do is what we do - we seek shelter from the named storm and don't post we survived that (famous) named storm - because it would ne untrue as we were not actually subject to the named storm.

Jonathan
[/QUOTE/)

We usually still get the wind, but can generally find anchorages that are completely sheltered from the sea.

 

[noelex]

Jonathan, as you know, we sail on the West Coast of Scotland, and always pay attention to weather forecasts. Forecasts which incidentally are so superior to what used to be available. As a result, when we know that there is bad weather. Anyway, as I was saying, when we get a bad forecast, and yes sometimes up to "Named Storms", we can, and do, choose to go to particular anchorages which we know will give reasonable shelter and reliable holding. Tell me what I'm doing wrong. How is that " bad seamanship"?

Precisely.

If you have undersized or poor anchoring gear I would avoid cruising more remote areas such as the West coast of Scotland. At the least you should avoid venturing too far away from Marinas, but you would be missing out on some wonderful cruising grounds. These areas are perfectly safe with good anchoring equipment.

The concept that you can cruise anywhere and always be able to avoid strong wind at anchor with superior seamanship is a fallacy that needs to be corrected at every opportunity.

 

[Stemar]

There is, I think, an acceptance amongst some members that a snubber as part of the anchor rode is advantageous. For those that use snubbers regularly what do they find is an acceptable snubber, rope type (construction and fibre type), size (diameter) for their yacht (defining, weight and lengths). Some people use mixed rodes, chain and rope, and consequently use quite long (?) lengths of rope. The rope is in effect a snubber - what feed back can they offer?

Jonathan

My snubber is a couple of metres or so long, with an eye splice that drops over the samson post, a bit of hose to prevent chafe over the bow roller, enough line to allow me to ensure the anchor or mooring chain is slack, with a dog bone rubber gizmo, then a much smaller eye splice with two chain hooks, one sized to fit my mooring chain, the other to fit the anchor chain. All 12 mm 3 - strand nylon.

The boat's a 24' Snapdragon, weighing in at about 3 1/2 tonnes in cruising order. We only use the snubber on the mooring if we're sleeping on board, to stop the graunching as the chain moves on the roller. For anchoring, it's probably a bit short, but it works well enough with the dog bone. We have 17m of chain, then rope so, if there's a real likelihood of snubbing & swinging around, we don't use it as we'll have enough scope out that the rope does the shock absorbing.

 

[dom]

Our snubber practice, a bridle so 2 snubbers, has developed. Our snubbers now are secured to the bridle plate (or hook if we were using a single snubber). We then run to the bow where we have turning blocks I specifically installed for the purpose. The turning blocks allow the snubbers to then be run down the side decks to clutches at the transom (we could use a 'V' cleat but we had two spare clutches). We then run to blocks on the transom, like spinnaker blocks and to sheet winches. The snubber arms are 30m long. Normally we simply use 15m, 10m down the decks and 5m each side to the central bridle plate - if the wind and any accompanying chop + swell develop we simply deploy more snubber - to a maximum of 30m. Many of our anchorages are open to the Tasman and swell can creep round headlands. We usually have plenty of room.

We historically used recycled 12mm climbing rope were so impressed with the 'performance' we bought 2 new 30m lengths, again of 12mm. On reflection we might have bought new 10mm snubbers - but the 12mm original snubbers worked so well - we stuck with what we knew.

Our rode is 6mm x 70m of high tensile chain, Armorgalv coated, we have been using the chain for 4 years now - with no issues. We normally would anchor with a depth of about 5m and a scope of 5:1. The idea that cats can anchor in shallow water is obviously true - but waves build up as the water shallows - and it can be most uncomfortable and we aim for about 5m depth.

We do have a chain lock - in case a snubber fails - it is a simple hook, attached by dyneema to a strong point. We use the same hook (and dyneema) to secure the anchor and chain when on passage.

If the truth be known we use a mixed rode - but in a different format to the common understanding.

We leave our bridle permanently installed and store the extra rope in a bag on the lifelines, stored as you might store spare sheets.

Our cat is 38' x 22'6" with a 3'3" draft and we would weight, at a maximum in full cruising mode, full of water and fuel (including a crew of 2) at around 7t.

Though we run to the sheet winches - which allows anyone to release or retrieve the snubbers - you can actually do it by hand - the tensions at the transom are surprisingly light - yet if you tried to retrieve the 'unsnubbered' chain it would simply be impossible because the tensions are several 100s of kg.

A bridle has the advantage it allows the snatch loads to be shared and centralises the yacht (which reduces the snatch loads (so a real win win) but if the wind/swell and tide are not in alignment a snubber does allow you to alter the direction in which the yacht lies to give the most comfortable position, simply allowing one arm to be slightly longer (or shorter) than the other - as Dom says above.

Jonathan

We power set the anchor, using the chain and the chain lock - we do not attach the snubber/bridle until we have completed the power set. Attaching the snubbers prior to power setting means the engine power is simply stretching the snubbers ( and reducing their life) and really you want all the power to be focussed at the anchor.

Excellent summary, but wait a second.

An anchor thread where we all agree?

Crikey!

Intuition however cautions that another anchor storm may soon be rolling in ?

 

[Star-Lord]

My collection of snubbers has been built up over the years, sometimes donated to people who have never had one. If you watch the Skip Novak YouTube video on storm anchoring you will see his snubber is as thick as his wrist! I think the general opinion is that is must not be too thick or else it defeats its purpose. There is a saying that your snubber is too short if people do not laugh at it's length!

So this is the table from Jimmy Green www and for most people in most conditions this will be a good place to start. If you have 8mm chain and you wanted a storm snubber then a boats length of 14mm - 16mm (depending on your boats weight) could be an idea. Part of the fun is setting up your system so you can safely attach the snubber and let out ten meters+ in windy conditions. I have read some people attach the snubber to their mast.. because the drier the snubber is the more effective it will work.

1/4 (6mm) chain hook with 3m x 10mm Liros 3 Strand Nylon
5/16 (8mm) chain hook with 4m x 12mm Liros 3 Strand Nylon
3/8 (10mm) chain hook with 5m x 14mm Liros 3 Strand Nylon
1/2 (12mm) chain hook with 6m x 16mm Liros 3 Strand Nylon

The snubber can be fixed to chain and attached to the cleat nearest bow in many instances without the need for hosepipe or anything else. A Y shape snubber is also a good way to go but you may find it easier to set with a Kong type grip rather than a simple hook.

'The Art of Creative Anchoring' by Fatty Goodlander is a great read for those interested in anchors and rodes and snubbers and includes heaving to and parachute anchors etc.

 

[gregcope]

6. Open a beer and a packet of crisps ​

This step sounds important. What does it add to the spring/snubber though?