smelly heads

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davidfox

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My heads are smelly, I understand this is due to bacteria in the inlet pipe, it would be best to change pipework, but it is very difficult to do - Do those things that you plug into the system (you cut the inlet pipe and plumb in a device with some sort of biocide/deodorant) work they cost £30-40 so your advice would appreciated before I fork out.
 
Before you do anything, some questions:

Is your boat in salt water or fresh?

Is your head only smelly for the first few flushes are the boat has sat awhile? Or smelly all the time?

Is the odor only in the head? Or does your whole boat smell when it's been closed up?

Do you only flush directly overboard? Or do you have to use a tank? If a tank, all the time? Or only when you vist some waters?
 
NO! - the 'deodorants in the inlet pipe DON'T work! - well with me they didn't, just made the water a nice blue colour. Change the pipework - however difficult it may be, you may have to cut up the pipes in situ, replace with the white 'no-smell' type, replace the water in the inlet pipe with fresh water and you'll get no smells even after several weeks standing. Guaranteed.
 
I agree that the "inline" devices aren't the answer...but replacing the piping may not be the answer either, 'cuz new hoses won't cure odor from stagnant sea water left to sit in the intake hose and pump either. It'll only give the smelly water a new home...a bit like putting new clothes on a dirty smelly body without taking a bath.

When I have the answers to my questions, I'll have a good idea of what's causing his odor and how to cure it. However, I will say this now...

About this time every year, I start to hear from people who've replaced all their hoses--even their toilets and holding tanks--trying to get rid of what they THOUGHT was "head odor"...when all they really had to do was clean their bilges. I don't mean just dump in more cleaner and let the bilge pumps do the work, but really CLEAN them. And then thoroughly flush all the dirty water out.

A wet bilge is a dark stagnant pond, a swamp in fact. And it behaves like one, growing a variety of molds, fungi and bacteria—some that thrive in dark stagnant water, others that just like damp dark places. The warmer the weather and water, the faster they grow. Add some dead and decaying sea water micro-organisms, dirt, food particles, rain water, wash water, hot weather and humidity, plus a little oil or diesel, and you have a real "primordial soup"...no wonder it smells like a sewer--it's producing the same gasses.

Most people’s approach to bilge cleaning consists only of throwing some bilge cleaner/and or bleach, or some other alleged "miracle" cleaner/deodorizer into that soup when it starts to stink and calling it done. I’ve never understood WHY they think that’s all there is to it. They wouldn’t just add some detergent and bleach to a bathtub full of dirty bath water, drain it and call the bathtub clean. No one would ever think of just adding a little more dishwashing detergent to a sinkful of dirty dishwater, pulling the plug and walking away without cleaning--and RINSING--the sink...so why would anyone think it’s possible to have a clean a bilge without rinsing all the dirty water out of it?

Sumps are another overlooked source of boat odor. Somehow it never occurs to many people that shower sumps and drains, like bathtubs, need regular cleaning to remove the hair, soap scum and body oils that collect in it the same way they leave a ring in the bathtub. And the shower sump may not be the only sump. Central heat/air conditioning condensate and sailboat ice boxes often drain into sumps instead of into the bilge. Left alone long enough, a wet dirty sump can smell like a sewer even faster than a wet dirty bilge. It’s another wet dark place, ideal for growing odor-producing “critters.”

So before you start tearing out piping to get rid of odor, try some SERIOUS cleaning. Once or twice a year should be enough to keep a boat that doesn't need new piping smelling fresh as a daisy.
 
i took the advice of a forum member and use a chlorine block in a plastic holder. works a treat and lasts for ages. take the smelly blue thing out of its holder and use that as the holder for the tablet. after 4 months im still on the same block/tablet and never any smells. ive also read that its good to use for washing sails though havn`t tried that yet..
 
a good space/area deoderant is a solution of washing up machine powder sprayed around likely offending surfaces, and mopped up

dont breath it in - as its slightly causic

should smell of nothing - or 'ozoney' if done effectivly.
 
Unfortunately, chlorine creates more problems than it solves. It may solve one odor problem, but causes another because it makes hoses more susceptible to odor permeation. It's also HIGHLY destructive to the rubber bits in the toilet pump.

I wouldn't use it to wash sails either...for the same reason you wouldn't use it in the laundry to wash nylon, dacron, and other synthetic materials (or anything that has elastic, if you question how damaging it is to rubber). It's damaging to synthetic materials too...even more so to those continually exposed to UV from the sun.

Chlorine is the most over-used, MISused product on a boat...it's every boat owner's "quick miracle cure"...and they rarely if ever make any connection between its use and the failures it causes.
 
The first thing to do as somebody else said is to replace both the inlet and outlet pipes with white odour free. The old pipe will be alive with bacteria and immediatly seeds the water left, in days you will have the characteristic odour being produced.
If you do not think the old pipe smells try leaving it in the lounge!

When you leave the boat first flush the heads with plenty of sea water, then shut the salt water intake valve. Finally flush with fresh water fill the bowl to the top adding some toilet duck stuff helps. Then flush this out and immediatly shut the main heads outlet valve.
If you can stop the bugs breeding in the pipe work you have cracked it!

I have made the assumption that you system is a sea toilet.

It is also worth checking that you do not have any leaks as "P" in the bilges is not good.
DiChlor is also a good bleach to use, do a search to find a supplier, note it is used in swimming pools.

All the best smells!
Trevor
 
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The first thing to do as somebody else said is to replace both the inlet and outlet pipes with white odour free. The old pipe will be alive with bacteria and immediatly seeds the water left, in days you will have the characteristic odour being produced.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the hoses have permeated--iow, you can rub your hand on the OUTside of the hose and the same odor is on your hand, then yes...replace the pipes. But if the hoses haven't permeated--if the only problem is bacteria in the pipe "seeding" the water--replacing the hoses won't accomplish a thing...'cuz the first time you use the toilet, the new hoses will be just as full of bacteria as the old hose was.

And although all head DISCHARGE lines do eventually permeate with odor and require replacement, intake lines rarely do. So if the odor is due to stagnant sea water left sitting in the head intake, it's the WATER that stinks, not the hoses.

"When you leave the boat first flush the heads with plenty of sea water, then shut the salt water intake valve. Finally flush with fresh water fill the bowl to the top adding some toilet duck stuff helps. Then flush this out and immediatly shut the main heads outlet valve.
If you can stop the bugs breeding in the pipe work you have cracked it!"

That last sentence is right. But anything poured into the bowl only solves half the problem--the discharge...it does nothing to prevent sea water from stagnating and "breeding bugs" in the INTAKE line, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl, because nothing poured into the bowl is recirculated through the intake line, pump and the channel in the rim of bowl...if it were, waste would be recirculated too.

Toilet Duck--or any other chemical bowl cleaner--will clean out the discharge hose...but it'll also break down the interior wall of the discharge hose, causing it permeate with odor much faster than it would if you didn't use it. A quart or two of clean fresh water down the toilet, followed by a cupful of undiluted white vinegar will accomplish just as much to prevent the "bugs from breeding" as chlorine or any chemical bowl cleaner, without damage to the hoses. And, vinegar also dissolves sea water minerals, preventing buildup in the hoses.

The simplest solution to sea water intake odor is: disconnect the intake line from the thru-hull, tee it into the head sink drain line instead. When you close up the boat, after you've closed the sink drain seacock, pump the head as dry as possible, then fill the sink with clean fresh water water...flush the head again. Because the thru-hull is closed, the toilet will pull the water out the sink, rinsing out the WHOLE system. It will be necessary to keep a plug in the sink to flush sea water...without it, the pump will just pull in air from the sink, preventing it from ever priming.

If teeing into the sink drain is impractical on your boat, in an easily accessed location, install a y-valve in the intake line that has a short piece of hose attached. When closing up the boat--again, after you've closed the seacock, stick the short hose into a jug or bucket of clean water...turn the valve to draw water from the bucket and flush it through. You could even install a 1-2 gallon tank to use for this purpose (do NOT connect it to your fresh water system!) instead of messing with a jug or bucket.

A simple, totally effective, and VERY inexpensive permanent solution to stagnant sea water odor.
 
Not the inlet pipe but the outlet pipe. The only solution, is before you leave the boat unattended close off the inlet pipe sea cock, fill the bowl with fresh water and pump out the bowl, then close the outlet seacock. This will leave only fresh water in the outlet pipe. I have done this for the past 7 years and as of today my head's have no smell whatever.

Paul.
 
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Before you do anything, some questions:

Is your boat in salt water or fresh?

Is your head only smelly for the first few flushes are the boat has sat awhile? Or smelly all the time?

Is the odor only in the head? Or does your whole boat smell when it's been closed up?

Do you only flush directly overboard? Or do you have to use a tank? If a tank, all the time? Or only when you vist some waters?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2 heads the forward one stinks and the aft one is perfect.
The boat is in salt water.
The smell is only in the heads and when the door is opened it is gag making.
I have no holding tank.
It gradually gets better over a day.
 
David, it's possible that the discharge hoses for only ONE toilet may have become permeated, but unlikely. From your answers it sounds like the forward toilet may have pulled in some animal or vegetable sea life that's died and is decaying in the head intake line, pump or the channel in the rim of the bowl. If it diminishes considerably after you've pumped a LOT of water through--not water poured into the bowl, but sea water via the intake--I'm 99% certain that's your problem...especially if you see black flecks in the bowl with the first flushes. It's not an unusual problem...weeds/eel grass are the most common, but I've cleaned minnows out of intake lines...seen tiny shrimp floating in the bowl...and you haven't LIVED till you've had to clean out the remains of a jelly fish, tiny squid or octupus out of a toilet and plumbing!

However, if I'd known you have two heads, I'd have asked two more questions:

Is it safe to assume that the forward head doesn't get much use? If so, the culprit may only be VERY stagnant sea water sitting in the intake. Once it's all been flushed out, the odor should go away. So if you haven't tried just pumping a LOT of new sea water through instead of only the amount needed to flush the toilet, that could be all it takes to get rid of it.

Is there a shower drain in the forward head that goes into a sump separate from any sump the aft shower drains into? If there is, and if it's been a while since it's been cleaned--or even used, it could very well be your culprit. If so, the odor would be much worse after the boat has been closed up...dissipate, but not disappear, gradually by just opening up the boat again.

Let's eliminate permeated hoses first. To check that, wet a clean rag in HOT water...wring it out and wrap it around a low section of the hose....let it cool, then remove the rag and smell it. If you can smell the same odor on the rag, the hose has permeated. Replacement is the only cure. If you can't smell it on the rag, the hose isn't the culprit.

Clean any sump that could be the culprit. Use a lot of detergent and water--but no chlorine or chemical cleaner, followed by a thorough rinse and some white vinegar flushed through it.

If none of the above gets rid of the odor, cleaning out the head intake is the only thing left to do. It's not a difficult job, but definitely a bit more of a time consuming PITA.

Disconnect the intake line from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!), stick it in a bucket of clean fresh water laced with plenty of detergent--though it might be worthwhile to also disconnect it from the head first to look through it to see if anything is caught in it--and pump it through the toilet. Wait a bit to allow the detergent to do its job...then follow it with several bucketfuls of clean fresh water liberally laced with white vinegar. That SHOULD do the job...but if it doesn't--especially if you continue to see black flecks in the bowl--it may be necessary to remove the bowl (just the bowl, not the whole toilet), put it on the dock and blast out the channel in the rim with a hose.

It's far more likely that something will be sucked up by the head in shallow waters than at sea in deep waters...so if you spend a lot of time on your boat at the dock, you might consider installing a sea strainer on the head intake lines. Strainers are MUCH easier to clean than doing all of the above.
 
sorry if the information on using chlorine is wrong. when i contacted the suppliers they said that it was the best thing to use because it did not react with rubber and plastic as it it used to make them. that is why it is used in swimming pools and is much more friendly than household bleaches and toilet ducks. i understand that in concentrated form it is very corrosive especially to metals that is why it must be kept in a plastic container. i was told that it is used to purify household water by killing all the organisms in the water and is made from salt water.
i will contact the suppliers and will question them about how it reacts with rubber and plastics.
 
Chlorine "made from salt water" is sodium (salt) hypochlorite...which is the same chlorine in bleach.

Toilet mfrs used to recommend bleach or chlorine...but about 10 years ago, most--at least most US mfrs--stopped doing so. They also used to recommend Vaseline as a pump lubricant...they don't do that any more either.

The problem with most equipment mfrs and suppliers (this doesn't only apply to plumbing, btw) is that they tend to focus solely on their own piece of equipment...without taking into account that it's likely to be just one component in complete system...that anything done--or not done that should be--to that one component can impact the entire system. If there's negative impact to another part of the system, it rarely occurs to 'em that something done to their part of it caused...the part of the system that failed has to be the culprit. Same is true of owners.

So if a toilet supplier ok's something for use in the toilet, he's not thinking about its impact on the hoses, only on the toilet. Or...if it was considered ok 20 years ago, it's ok today. They aren't above making it up as they go along either....you say, "You told me to use chlorine, but I've just heard that chlorine is destructive to the rubber parts in my toilet and bad for hoses"...they say (thinking fast because no supplier wants to be caught out with bad advice), "Well, that may be true of older toilets, but rubber is different now...after all, chlorine doesn't hurt swimming pool pumps." (Actually, it does...swimming pool pumps require a LOT of maintenance!)

White vinegar--which is considerably more acidic than cider--really does a much better job than bleach to accomplish the desired result...'cuz it not only destroys odors, but also retards bacterial activity by lowering the pH level in the hoses...and--unlike bleach--it also dissolves sea water minerals. However, like bleach, it CAN be destructive to SOFT rubber bits (joker valve in particular) if they're allowed to soak in it for an extended period...so always be sure to flush it all the way through the hoses, NEVER leave vinegar sitting in the bowl.

However, it's your boat...so if you want to use chlorine, it's ok with me. Just remember this conversation if your hoses start to stink in less time than they should. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Before doing any major work, try spraying Detol anti bacterial spray in the bowl after flushing so the water sitting in the pipes contains the spray then occasionaly spray it round the outside and round the valves etc. It works for ours.It also doesn't have a smell. I find that one connects the "perfume" smell of some products with toilets so its as bad as the poo smell
 
Thanks Headmistress all will be tried!

Incidently it is the heads only and not the shower.
There is also plant life being flushed through when we first pump the heads when on board!
 
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There is also plant life being flushed through when we first pump the heads when on board!

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That's your culprit, David. The inside of the intake hose and pump are an anaerobic environment, so any organic matter--animal or vegetable--trapped in the system will produce noxious gasses as it decays. So unless you still have odor after you've cleaned it all out, that's the only thing you need to do.
 
[ QUOTE ]
sorry if the information on using chlorine is wrong. when i contacted the suppliers they said that it was the best thing to use because it did not react with rubber and plastic as it it used to make them. that is why it is used in swimming pools and is much more friendly than household bleaches and toilet ducks. i understand that in concentrated form it is very corrosive especially to metals that is why it must be kept in a plastic container. i was told that it is used to purify household water by killing all the organisms in the water and is made from salt water.
i will contact the suppliers and will question them about how it reacts with rubber and plastics.

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I wouldn't worry too much. I posted the original article on using a small piece of a swimming pool chlorine block in an in line catridge in the inlet pipe to the heads. I have had these fitted to both Jabsco heads on my current boat for the last five years and since then, the only maintenance they have required is the occassional replacement of the joker valve when it gets furred up

No smells, no damaged seals, valves or anything else. In spite of headmistress concerns - there cannot be much wrong with this system, it works and its trouble free.
 
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