Smallish boats and anchor and chain: Some opinions please

[john_morris_uk]

The title alone should make this thread run and run, but I'm after some second opinions. I'm used to cruising on our 11 tonne 39' boat and we carry something like 90 metres of 10mm chain and it has a big powerful windlass to pull it in. I haven't skippered or even sailed a very small boat for over forty years.

Daughter has bought herself a little 7.03 metre Pandora. It's come with what I believe is a genuine Bruce of 5kg that's attached to 2.6 metres of 6mm chain and then 27 metres or thereabouts of what appears to be nylon rode. She's bought a Fortress FX7 plus some more chain and multi plait and she wants to decide what she really needs..

She is planning on cruising round the Solent etc with a trip to France one day if things work out.

My suggestion is to demote the Bruce and bit of chain etc to kedge duties and stick it in a bucket (with drain holes) in the cockpit locker. (I do worry that 2.6 metres of chain isn't enough but that's another matter.)

What's a reasonable rode for the bower anchor for the cruising she's planning? The boat is bilge keel and only draws a metre or so, so she can nudge into shallow water to anchor, but you don't always want to take the ground (the toilet stops working for a start!). With tidal range, even in the Solent, she'll run out of rode pretty quickly if she's only got the 30 meters she's got. I appreciate that more is good, but it's a little boat and you haven't got room to carry tonnes of gear and it would kill the sailing characteristics anyway. I'm thinking ten metres of chain plus 50 metres of multiplait? Any advance or is that too much?

(For storage, there's a nice anchor locker on the foredeck)

 

[Rappey]

6mm anchor chain is around 0.8kg per metre. 25m of chain would add 20kg.
Not sure there is a right and wrong. If hauling it in by hand then mulitiplait is nicer to handle . Can't see any fault with your suggested 10m chain..

 

[doug748]

Hard to say 50m + 10m chain is too much because someone will always say "ah but, what if"

However the existing 27m (+ 10 of replacement 6mm chain) would almost certainly be fine for the everyday sailing in prospect. If a kedge is required I see nothing wrong with 50m of new stuff + 10 of chain but that could be realistically deferred for later, or the France trip if it happens.

If she attaches the old rode to summut solid and pulls a length of it she will feel the stretch - if it's solid, old, rigid polyester it will really need to be replaced with nylon anyway.

.

 

[chrishscorp]

I have a Centaur, just replaced the CQR copy with a Kobra II which is on the end of 27M of 8mm chain, we dont normally anchor in more than 3-4 meters, if at the bottom of the tide will happily anchor in 2M providing its fairly calm. One of the nice things about the small bilge keelers is we can get fairly close in, in some of the anchorages that get pretty crowded on a summers day.

Edited.

 

[Zagato]

Drascombes and Shrimpers of similar length/displacement use mainly 5-7KG Danforth and Bruce, some have plough anchors like a 6KG Delta instead of the Danforth. I wouldn,t rely on a Fortress as the main anchor John. I presumed you had read my posts about the trials and tribulations of this Fortress. OK perhaps for a kedge as some seem to keep the smaller ones for or from a dinghy when you have time to play around with setting but it has caused continual grief from the guy I bought it off who is experienced, and sails his 21' 1000KG Drascombe Drifter bilge keel mainly in the Solent, and along the south coast. I would hate to think of your daughter struggling with it as we did, it is no fun in a tight anchorage. My mate!! tried everything, adjustments, chain weight etc etc but it didn,t always set so he passed it on to me... great! The anchor "Sailing" in tidal water maybe some of the problem but he said it just wouldn,t bite in. I could not get it to set either on the one or two occasions I tried so bought a 10KG Danforth instead for peace of mind. As previously said on many occasions, the warden at Newton Creek noticed me struggling with it and said I needed heavier chain than 6 mm! He has heavier chain and swears by it. Well Fortress advice 6 mm and it defeats the object I thought having heavier chain which is not possible or necessary in a little Drascombe. As I have said before I pulled the Fortress along side the equivalent 7KG Danforth over my veg patch and over my lawn. I did this a few times really slowly. The Danforth digs in with a couple of inches but not so the Fortress, it doesn't dig in at all sometimes, especially if you pull it a bit faster, it just skips over... the Danforths weight perhaps makes it dig in. It's as though the mud flaps I think Neeves calls them need to be a bit steeper similar to the Danforth but cannot be adjusted any steeper. (Just simulated that, doesn't, make a difference, the Danforth edge is 90degrees and just stops then digs in! As I have them both in front of me, I have just pulled them both... the Danforths digs into my carpet immediately and scrapes away, the Fortress just glides over it without a scratch, tips are not in the carpet pile at all due to the design!

(Edit, I have just been pulling both anchors back and forth along my lawn, the Danforth digs in every time, the Fortress some of the time if there is a lump/bump BUT interestingly and this could be quite significant, I couldn,t work out why is was not setting sometimes on the same bump bit it had just previously set...you have to pull it dead straight. If it veers VERY slightly one way it won,t dig in and you can pull it as long as you like slightly faster and it won,t bite. I think this is the main problem with this little anchor... perhaps the larger ones are not so susceptible! When I say veer very slightly, I am man pulling it and pushing it in front of me at only arms length so not hard to pull straight especially when the shank waggles from left to right slightly. Anybody still awake!

Edit again, I have just tightened up everything on the Fortress and unlike the Danforth which has one fluke tip significantly lower then the other, the Fortress flukes are still loose enough to go up and down a couple of mm and they are level, this surely maybe the reason why it is susceptible to skipping sideways over the ground. The shorter shank can give a wider angle of pull also and a small opposed to a straight 90 degree edge digging into the ground the Fortress tips are more pencil shaped if you can imagine them living on their side. I would doubt this has much on a really bumpy ground but clay/mud can be pretty hard and smooth!!

Keep the Bruce if it is genuine and get a 6KG Delta for weedier areas. The guys used a combination of all 6 mm chain to part rode, few had more than forty metres for the south coast. They towed down to the Med, France, SWeden, Denmark etc so we're pretty experienced and may have had more rode in those areas.

 

[vyv_cox]

Points not mentioned. Pushing rope down a hawse pipe/spurling pipe is no joke. Laying wet chain on top of rope can result in a lot of corrosion and rapid loss of galvanising. With an opening anchor locker rope is less of a problem.

 

[Neeves]

I cannot comment directly, don't know the area and my experience is for things bigger but:

We use 15m of 6mm and 40m of nylon as a second rode. We store in a milk crate, coil the nylon inside the perimeter and store the chain in the 'hole' left in the middle. Its easily light enough to carry down the deck. If you are stuffing quickly into a locker - anchor plait is more tactile (and as mentioned) easier to handle.

I'd second the idea of a Kobra, good reliable anchor, cheap.

I note the comment on the Fortress, we use a FX 16 with the 15m of 6mm chain - no issues at all. Maybe a small one does not work so well - Zagato - do you use the mud palms?

Keep all the small bits of chain, join them together to make, part of, a second rode.

Vyv's comments on corrosion are too true, make sure the anchor locker drains well. Ideally you want to coil the rope and store it separately (hung on the locker bulkhead) - I confess though I've sailed, raced (really great fun) on Pandora's I don't recall the bow locker - at all!

Jonathan

 

[chrishscorp]

I have a Fortess in the rear locker and there it stays, it has never been out in 5 years, its there as a kedge should i need one.

She would be better off with a Delta or Kobra something that will set in hard sand in the solent. I used my Kobra yesterday in Priory bay, its well oversized at 14Kg it dug itself in and i stuggled to get it out, so i have had to change how i recover an anchor. So if she has no windlass like myself, i haul in the chain till im over the top of it lock it off on the fore cleat and let the wave action lift the boat and pull out the anchor. It would be worth you going out and showing her how this is done so she dosnt get her finger tips nipped or worse.

 

[blackbeard]

For what it's worth, I have a 25-foot bilge keel boat, draft 1 metre (British Hunter 245) and my main anchor is a 10 kg Britany with 14 m of 8mm chain plus 8-plain nylon. Boat tends to stay where put. As I can anchor in fairly shallow water, 14 m of chain is plenty. Britany works for me, but it's a mud lover and usually brings up a generous sample which it then spreads all over the boat and me. Also it's a right handful to get past the jib furler and through the pulpit. I chose the Britany since the anchor locker is rather small and shallow and the Britany is the only anchor of useful size which I could find that would fit. Am considering an 8 kg Kobra, which would fold and might fit ...
Anyway, measure, very carefully, the anchor locker before deciding on best anchor. Some would say that the ideal anchor weight is the largest that can reasonably be handled and stowed, but I'll stay out of that argument...
On a boat of just 7 m long, you will need to be very careful to keep weight out of the ends, so 6 mm chain and no longer than you need (more than 2.6 metres though!). Tides in Solent are not huge (and in Poole even less). Poole and Chi are wonderful playgrounds for a small boat that is happy taking ground ..

 

[TernVI]

With a slightly bigger boat, we used to use 5m of chain and 30m of rope as the permanent rode. An eye splice on the end of the rope makes adding more easier when you want to. A lump of lead to sink the rope is worth while.
Too long a permanent rode is a real pain when it overfills the anchor locker.
You want a long rope on the boat which isn't attached to the anchor.
Never owned a genuine Fortress, but generic Danforth type bargains are generally OK around the Solent IME, so see no reason why a Fortress shouldn't be fine.
No point going mad, there are very few places to sit out a real gale in a boat like that, whatever the anchor.
The kit needs to be easy to use in sensible conditions.

 

[duncan99210]

I’ve got a Hurley 18 with a CQR, 8m or so of 6mm chain and about 40m of nylon 3 strand rope. Just about to replace the CQR with a Guardian G7 and the chain will be replaced with 5m of 6 or 4mm stainless chain. Rope will remain in use. Never been happy with the CQR whereas I’ve come to trust the Guardian (we have a larger version as kedge on the boat in Greece, where it has performed well when used).

 

[Zagato]

Drascombes and Shrimpers of similar length/displacement use mainly 5-7KG Danforth and Bruce, some have plough anchors like a 6KG Delta instead of the Danforth. I wouldn,t rely on a Fortress as the main anchor John. I presumed you had read my posts about the trials and tribulations of this Fortress. OK perhaps for a kedge as some seem to keep the smaller ones for or from a dinghy when you have time to play around with setting but it has caused continual grief from the guy I bought it off who is experienced, and sails his 21' 1000KG Drascombe Drifter bilge keel mainly in the Solent, and along the south coast. I would hate to think of your daughter struggling with it as we did, it is no fun in a tight anchorage. My mate!! tried everything, adjustments, chain weight etc etc but it didn,t always set so he passed it on to me... great! The anchor "Sailing" in tidal water maybe some of the problem but he said it just wouldn,t bite in. I could not get it to set either on the one or two occasions I tried so bought a 10KG Danforth instead for peace of mind. As previously said on many occasions, the warden at Newton Creek noticed me struggling with it and said I needed heavier chain than 6 mm! He has heavier chain and swears by it. Well Fortress advice 6 mm and it defeats the object I thought having heavier chain which is not possible or necessary in a little Drascombe. As I have said before I pulled the Fortress along side the equivalent 7KG Danforth over my veg patch and over my lawn. I did this a few times really slowly. The Danforth digs in with a couple of inches but not so the Fortress, it doesn't dig in at all sometimes, especially if you pull it a bit faster, it just skips over... the Danforths weight perhaps makes it dig in. It's as though the mud flaps I think Neeves calls them need to be a bit steeper similar to the Danforth but cannot be adjusted any steeper. (Just simulated that, doesn't, make a difference, the Danforth edge is 90degrees and just stops then digs in! As I have them both in front of me, I have just pulled them both... the Danforths digs into my carpet immediately and scrapes away, the Fortress just glides over it without a scratch, tips are not in the carpet pile at all due to the design!

(Edit, I have just been pulling both anchors back and forth along my lawn, the Danforth digs in every time, the Fortress some of the time if there is a lump/bump BUT interestingly and this could be quite significant, I couldn,t work out why is was not setting sometimes on the same bump bit it had just previously set...you have to pull it dead straight. If it veers VERY slightly one way it won,t dig in and you can pull it as long as you like slightly faster and it won,t bite. I think this is the main problem with this little anchor... perhaps the larger ones are not so susceptible! When I say veer very slightly, I am man pulling it and pushing it in front of me at only arms length so not hard to pull straight especially when the shank waggles from left to right slightly. Anybody still awake!

Edit again, I have just tightened up everything on the Fortress and unlike the Danforth which has one fluke tip significantly lower then the other, the Fortress flukes are still loose enough to go up and down a couple of mm and they are level, this surely maybe the reason why it is susceptible to skipping sideways over the ground. The shorter shank can give a wider angle of pull also and a small opposed to a straight 90 degree edge digging into the ground the Fortress tips are more pencil shaped if you can imagine them living on their side. I would doubt this has much on a really bumpy ground but clay/mud can be pretty hard and smooth!!

Keep the Bruce if it is genuine and get a 6KG Delta for weedier areas. The guys used a combination of all 6 mm chain to part rode, few had more than forty metres for the south coast. They towed down to the Med, France, SWeden, Denmark etc so we're pretty experienced and may have had more rode in those areas.

Duplicate post...

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some good points and all noted. I'll try and take some photo's of the Bruce and see if anyone can confirm whether it's a genuine one. I won't renege on our deal Zegato and I'll be down one day this week if that's OK. I'll be in touch.

John

 

[Zagato]

Sounds like you want the deal John, no problem and no problem of course if you don,t want to go through with it... doesn't matter to me either way. Just please don,t regard it as a main anchor, kedge only you can afford to set from a dinghy or dig into the bank by hand. I will show you when you come what I mean Useless across my carpet, lawn, veg patch etc 7KG Danforth just digs straight in for all the reasons explained. When I sold my Drascombe last year a Dutch guy bought it and I laid out a choice of anchors for him to choose from a 7KG Bruce, 7KG Danforth and the Fortress. He wasn,t stupid, he chose my genuine Bruce, damn! Sure you don,t want the Fortress I said out of interest, ah, no, no was the reply. No problem...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Daughter has bought herself a little 7.03 metre Pandora. It's come with what I believe is a genuine Bruce of 5kg that's attached to 2.6 metres of 6mm chain and then 27 metres or thereabouts of what appears to be nylon rode. She's bought a Fortress FX7 plus some more chain and multi plait and she wants to decide what she really needs..

My similarly-sized (21', 1 tonne) Jouster came with 30 fathoms of 1/4" chain and a nameless 15 lbs-ish CQR knock-off which despite my initial doubts never caused any problems. It was far too much chain, though, and I only once used it all. My Drascombe Longboat (similar size but much lighter) has a 5kg Bruce knock-off with 2 metres of 6mm chain and 30m of nylon. I've never anchored that in bad conditions, but it seems to set and hold extremely well.

I think that a 5kg Bruce plus mixed rode will be just fine, though 27m of nylon doesn't sound very much. However, one of the joys of a small boat is being able to fit into smaller anchorages so she may not need much. Even with 1.3m at the moment I normally find I can tuck myself in well inshore of the busy bits of anchorages.

 

[Mark-1]

The title alone should make this thread run and run, but I'm after some second opinions. I'm used to cruising on our 11 tonne 39' boat and we carry something like 90 metres of 10mm chain and it has a big powerful windlass to pull it in. I haven't skippered or even sailed a very small boat for over forty years.

Daughter has bought herself a little 7.03 metre Pandora. It's come with what I believe is a genuine Bruce of 5kg that's attached to 2.6 metres of 6mm chain and then 27 metres or thereabouts of what appears to be nylon rode. She's bought a Fortress FX7 plus some more chain and multi plait and she wants to decide what she really needs..

She is planning on cruising round the Solent etc with a trip to France one day if things work out.

My suggestion is to demote the Bruce and bit of chain etc to kedge duties and stick it in a bucket (with drain holes) in the cockpit locker. (I do worry that 2.6 metres of chain isn't enough but that's another matter.)

What's a reasonable rode for the bower anchor for the cruising she's planning? The boat is bilge keel and only draws a metre or so, so she can nudge into shallow water to anchor, but you don't always want to take the ground (the toilet stops working for a start!). With tidal range, even in the Solent, she'll run out of rode pretty quickly if she's only got the 30 meters she's got. I appreciate that more is good, but it's a little boat and you haven't got room to carry tonnes of gear and it would kill the sailing characteristics anyway. I'm thinking ten metres of chain plus 50 metres of multiplait? Any advance or is that too much?

(For storage, there's a nice anchor locker on the foredeck)

When I got my shoal draft boat I thought nudging into shallow water to anchor would be a massive advantage. The reality has been different . Frequently, there's not a smooth progressive decline in depth that allows me to smugly go inshore of everyone else but a steep gut edge which must be avoided which forces me to anchor more or less with the 'normal' fin keelers. (Or right up the beach so I'm stuck for 12 hours.)

I think I have 40 metres of nylon rode and 3m of chain and I next time I'll go with 50m of nylon. I use a 2kg claw as an angel to keep the line away from other people's propellors and my own keels and to try to make my boat swing more like everyone else's. That works surprisingly well.

You can't have too much chain or too much rode so if she's comfortable hauling 10m of chain in then great! Personally, I'm not and the lighter my ground tackle the better! (The opposite to my biases IYSWIM) Mind you, if she's happy about hauling 10m of chain why not just buy 50m of chain? [Edit: Ignore that, you explained why!]

The revelation for me was the lunchhook, a 2kg claw that sits in a bucket with nylon rode and is my go to ground tackle unless I plan to sleep/leave the boat. Takes all the faff out of anchoring singlehanded. Plus an anchor you can throw 2 boat lengths is incredibly useful on a boat that takes to the ground. (Given that, personally, I'd take the chain off the Bruce kedge.)

 

[Blueboatman]

No opinion, just what worked for me at that size boat. 30m of chain (6mm) and 35lb cqr -so say perhaps 17kg of something a bit more modern in anchor design.
Everything less just proved worrisome?
Singlehanded, underpowered , short shaft outboard, waves, shallows, other boats getting entangled, kelp, all that ...ugh

One really trustworthy, foredeck cleat is .. nice to hang it all on ..?
It’s not the ‘ normal ‘ small boat anchoring loads or the theoreticals which get one in to trouble , it’s when the plan goes wobbly and that single set up is all that keeps the boat safe in an unsafe situation
Just my experience

 

[longjohnsilver]

No opinion, just what worked for me at that size boat. 30m of chain (6mm) and 35lb cqr -so say perhaps 17kg of something a bit more modern in anchor design.
Everything less just proved worrisome?
Singlehanded, underpowered , short shaft outboard, waves, shallows, other boats getting entangled, kelp, all that ...ugh

One really trustworthy, foredeck cleat is .. nice to hang it all on ..?
It’s not the ‘ normal ‘ small boat anchoring loads or the theoreticals which get one in to trouble , it’s when the plan goes wobbly and that single set up is all that keeps the boat safe in an unsafe situation
Just my experience

I recall an anchoring problem in the cove a few years back

 

[Blueboatman]

Haha indeed John?
I still have that anchor btw
But no wet suit

 

[alahol2]

In 40+ years of anchoring around the Solent in boats from 20' to 32' I honestly can't remember ever using more than about 30 metres of rope and/or chain. I'd say 95% of the time I use no more than 20 metres which is my 'default setting' (forgive the pun).
I'd agree with others who question the use of the Fortress as main anchor, I think you need a much more 'general purpose' anchor like a Delta/Kobra. Remember there are several anchorages that enjoy a 180deg reversal of current.
I'd also agree that anchorplait is a much better rope to handle than 3-strand.