Small sailboat on a small budget

A few observations.

A 19ft boat will probably be more like 20 or 21ft overall on a trailer. I have never seen a boat on a trailer with the extreme front of the boat level with the tow ball.

You talk of canals. The inland canals as well as being restricted to 7ft mostly have shallow water and low air draft, certainly too low for a sailing boat. Inland canals are not the place for a sailing boat. Most rivers also have bridges that would stop a mast on a sailing boat.

We used to have a Frolic 18 (not a common boat) that did have 4 cosy berths but was about 8ft beam.
 
I don't expect to use the sail on canals, I would have an outboard for that, the sail would be more for coastal water and some larger rivers. I just don't see the point of righting of so many waterways for the sake of a few inches more leg room while sitting in the cabin.
 
I would be concerned over the difference of the beam and free board between a sailing yacht and canal barge for getting through bridges, I’m not a canal user but watch a lot on YouTube and they look often very tight arches quite low down.
 
DaveBags said:
I don't expect to use the sail on canals, I would have an outboard for that, the sail would be more for coastal water and some larger rivers. I just don't see the point of righting of so many waterways for the sake of a few inches more leg room while sitting in the cabin.
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Never seen a small sailing cruiser without its mast used on the narrow canals - the requirements for the 2 uses could not be more different. As said several times the water is very shallow, often 2' and narrow, and all the other users are driving several tons of barely in control steel! You might find short stretches between locks where you could potter up and down, but if that is what you want to do buy a small motor boat.

One thing not discussed so far is trailering and launching. Once you get near 20' overall - and that is the size you need for 4 berths boats become heavy which means heavy trailers and big vehicles to tow. Launching is difficult because of the shortage of decent slipways and amount of work to rig the boat. In reality once you get over 16' with a proper cabin and fixed keels you tend towards trailing your boat home once a year rather than keeping it at home and towing to different places. Many people don't even launch from the trailer but use a yard crane or hoist.

Trailer sailing is more viable if you choose a day boat such as the traditional style boats (Drascombes, Devon Yawl etc or one of the more modern designs like Swallows) but these won't give you accommodation and you won't get one within your budget.

I think you have to accept that with your limited budget your choice is very limited so you need to look at what is available and determine how and where you could use the boat. An "all purpose" boat just does not exist.
 
My long term aim is to sail around the coast of Europe to the Mediterranean but that's years away. There's a marina in town I plan to learn on, the local boat yard that I'm planning to moor on has a hoist and I'm about 10 miles from anderton boat lift. The north Wales coast is about 3/4 of an hour away for when I'm confident. I'm not planning on using canals too often but my dad has got a bit of an obsession with the boat lift so I will want to use that at some point. Here's a link to the waterways draughts

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3iCubBG1oAFN65DJgjxcyY

Apart from a few most are minimum of 3ft 3 so a low bilge keel should be ok surely? I'm not too worried about other boat users, I would be annoyed (and wet) if one sank my boat but that's what insurance is for, I'm sure there's more danger of injury towing it to the coast along a busy road, some lorry drivers are in a world of there own in that slow lane.

I'm not expecting to be able to use all rivers and canals but a well planned fortnight should be possible, with the opportunity to practice sailing in places. As I said at the start this is a boat to learn on, I'm not expecting an all purpose boat but the ability to practice on the local river/marina is pretty important, the fact that that opens up some canals is a nice bonus.
 
A quick update on the search.. I'm having very little joy finding suitable boats in my budget, I wonder if it's a seasonal issue enhanced by the fact holiday prices are so inflated right now? I have found a cheap option locally but it's been on shore for 15yrs and had filled with rainwater and would require a complete overhaul internally. I have concerns about some of the structural aspects too. (If anyone has done an extensive refurbishment of a seawych please get in touch).
Would people recommend waiting? Do prices seem inflated or did I just see some bargains when I was initially working out how much to save?
 
I built a Seawych from a kit in the mid 1970s. They were virtually all home completed and although most used the standard kit of parts certain key structural tasks were up to the builder such as ballasting the keels, glassing in the bulkheads and the interior mouldings plus bonding the deck to the hull - I have particularly fond memories of the last operation!. Having said that the kits were very well made and the instructions excellent, so most boats turned out fine. One thing to look carefully at is the lower part of the bilge keels as if these get abraded and if water gets into the keel mouldings it rusts the steel punchings used for ballast. Horrible job to repair - this happened to my boat long after I sold it and I watched the owner fix it, but he was a GRP worker in a local boatbuilder so knew what he was doing. Really simple boat and probably an easy one to refurbish compared with some from that era. full of water rings alarm bells as rot in the main bulkheads would not be easy to repair.

As to the market, while the current restrictions on travel etc have affected many parts, particularly larger more valuable boats at the nd you are looking. the reality is that the number of good boats is small and shrinking , and your area had relatively few to start with. Most old small boats are unsaleable because the cost of getting them usable is so high. You have to be realistic in thinking whether a couple of thousand would get you a usable boat when if such a boat were made now it would cost 10 or 15 times that amount. The prime reason why small old boats end up unusable lying in peoples' gardens or back of boatyards is that the cost of keeping them running is so high compared with the value owners get out of them.

As to the canals, as already suggested you will need to get the boat through the Boat safety scheme first and then find a way of actually accessing the canal - there are no slips and no facilities to raise and lower masts. If your dad wants to experience the boat lift, suggest you hire a narrowboat for a week and do it properly!
 
Tranona said:
I built a Seawych from a kit in the mid 1970s. They were virtually all home completed and although most used the standard kit of parts certain key structural tasks were up to the builder such as ballasting the keels, glassing in the bulkheads and the interior mouldings plus bonding the deck to the hull - I have particularly fond memories of the last operation!. Having said that the kits were very well made and the instructions excellent, so most boats turned out fine. One thing to look carefully at is the lower part of the bilge keels as if these get abraded and if water gets into the keel mouldings it rusts the steel punchings used for ballast. Horrible job to repair - this happened to my boat long after I sold it and I watched the owner fix it, but he was a GRP worker in a local boatbuilder so knew what he was doing. Really simple boat and probably an easy one to refurbish compared with some from that era. full of water rings alarm bells as rot in the main bulkheads would not be easy to repair.

As to the market, while the current restrictions on travel etc have affected many parts, particularly larger more valuable boats at the nd you are looking. the reality is that the number of good boats is small and shrinking , and your area had relatively few to start with. Most old small boats are unsaleable because the cost of getting them usable is so high. You have to be realistic in thinking whether a couple of thousand would get you a usable boat when if such a boat were made now it would cost 10 or 15 times that amount. The prime reason why small old boats end up unusable lying in peoples' gardens or back of boatyards is that the cost of keeping them running is so high compared with the value owners get out of them.

As to the canals, as already suggested you will need to get the boat through the Boat safety scheme first and then find a way of actually accessing the canal - there are no slips and no facilities to raise and lower masts. If your dad wants to experience the boat lift, suggest you hire a narrowboat for a week and do it properly!
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That’s all really sensible advice. It is possible to buy a small boat cheaply and end up with a tidy little vessel but you have to be very lucky. Our daughter picked up her Pandora complete with road going trailer for well under £1k. However it cost another couple of thousand or more plus a LOT of work to get it seaworthy. Here’s her Instagram story to see a fraction of what was involved. (Eg It doesn’t include the full rewire in tinned copper wire and the hours of varnishing and donated teak and wood machining I did!) The new outboard at just over £1k cost more than the original boat cost! Login • Instagram
 
Pegasus 700 is a possibility although even three in the 800 was "tight". Look for a Broads based version as many had the mast set in a tabernacle to get under the bridges. My Nicholson (not recommended as it is a 26''er and draws nearly 6') is fine for two, Ok for three on passage but if you're sailing with four, you have to be family.:cool:
 
@john_morris_uk that is a wonderful photo account of the restoration of Éowyn - yourselves have done an amazing job on her.
I have bookmarked it so that I can use it as a good example of what can be achieved, even when everything looks pretty grim to start with.

There is an original Pandora here which is looking for a kind person to give her the same treatment - she was built in the early / mid 70's, had a red hull and beige deck / cabin, and was called 'Gay Pandora' then. She is now called 'Riptide', is painted white all over, and is basically just a shell (I hope that the mast and rigging is still around somewhere).
 
I can echo what Tranona says about the Seawych, a friend had one and it was a nice little boat to sail, unfortunately he delayed in sorting out the wear on the encapsulated keels and over the Winter the water that was still in the encapsulated keels became ice which when combined with the rusting ballast managed to create a force that caused the hull adjoins the keels to split completely.
 
If the canal sides are sloping at a shallow angle, would bilge keels be a nuisance, in that the shoreside keel would hit the bank & hold the boat off the side further than a fin keel of the same draft?
I understood that many canals tended to have a shallow shelf at the side, then drop down to a deeper depth a short distance from the side. A feature well known to coarse fishermen.
 
Bilge keels and canals are not a good mix, as Daydream beleiver points out. Canals are shallow at the sides and basically dish shaped unless shuttering has been used to support the banks to allow moorings. Profile obviously varies, but although there my be 3 feet of water in the main channel, there will more usually than not be considerably less at the sides. Barges are flat bottomed. The best configuration for a sailing boat going through UK canals is a shallow draft drop keeler.
 
I think this is an interesting question. A recent BBC4 show followed a canal through fabulous peaceful English countryside. It certainly made me look at, and think about whether a small sea-going sailing boat might venture inland. I don't care why a steel narrowboat is the conventional preference - I'm only interested in what's possible.

A lifting-keeler certainly seems to be the required solution, given the unreliable depths. The beam is a bigger problem.

I was interested to read that while seven-foot beam is the nominal maximum on many canals, that measurement assumes inclusion of a few inches' thickness of heavy-duty rubbing strake along the hull. If a yacht is to fit in a narrow stone lock, it will need serious abrasion defences, and will have to be narrow enough to fit with that rubber added...so it will need to be a very narrow yacht.

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I concluded that a Westerly Nimrod (above) might be an answer, at least for my own preferences. Under 18ft long; 6ft 6" beam. It's not an ocean-crosser, but fine for coastal sailing.

For my envisaged use, she would need the mast in a tabernacle with a 'gin-pole' to enable mast-raising and lowering, in order to allow some inland sailing. Doubtless wooded, built-up or bridged sections of canal (or shallows preventing lowering the keel upwind) would prohibit sailing; but any miles where one can sail, would be the more blissful for their rarity.

However, my recent use of a small (and not that small) yacht, reminded me how diabolically cramped their cabins are. Even if only two people share accommodation which is claimed to sleep four, it will be fairly wretched, like camping in the back of a car...

...but, if the cockpit is a decent size and can be simply boom-tented for weatherproof galley/bathroom uses, and if the cabin is kept for sleeping and dry storage, it could be fun in warm weather, singlehanded or with someone you like sharing tight spaces with.

.
 
I can't help thinking that the right boat for everything you want doesn't exist.

Space for 4 and sailing ability - no problem, even on a budget if you don't mind a bit of fettling. Actually, make that a LOT of fettling. I never met a boat more than a year out of the moulds that only needed a bit of fettling o_O

Go on the canals and 19ft with its trailer - no problem

Both in one boat? I just can't see it.

I wonder if an interim solution would be a bigger dinghy like a Wayfarer. Add a tent cover and, with a bit of ingenuity, you could sleep a couple of people on boat and chugging along the canals with a little outboard would be fine. It's also a good boat for learning to sail - many, if not most of us, learned the ropes - literally - on dinghies before moving on to bigger and more expensive things. Another advantage is that you won't need to spend a year fixing stuff before getting out on the water.
 
Wasn't there an account on here, pre lockdown, of an American visitor who'd bought a small sailing yacht, removed the mast & then travelled some of the canals of the UK? I wish I could remember what his boat was, he sold it on Ebay at the end of his trip. So, proof positive that it can be done.
 
It is possible to do the "ring" Thames - Kennet- Kennet and Avon canal - Avon, London to Bristol because that is a wide beam canal with nominal 4'depth. There are other canal sections, mostly short commercial from the sea to an inland port that are wide beam - but do not form a circuit. All the others (and the ones the OP wants to use) are narrow beam and shallow. If one wants to use the canals with a boat that is not a narrow boat and is also usable in rivers and estuaries then there are plenty of GRP motor cruisers +/- 20' built in the 60's-90's that will do the job.
 
john_morris_uk said:
That’s all really sensible advice. It is possible to buy a small boat cheaply and end up with a tidy little vessel but you have to be very lucky. Our daughter picked up her Pandora complete with road going trailer for well under £1k. However it cost another couple of thousand or more plus a LOT of work to get it seaworthy. Here’s her Instagram story to see a fraction of what was involved. (Eg It doesn’t include the full rewire in tinned copper wire and the hours of varnishing and donated teak and wood machining I did!) The new outboard at just over £1k cost more than the original boat cost! Login • Instagram
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That looks fantastic @john_morris_uk, it's exactly what I am hoping to do. I recently converted a van to a camper so I have confidence in my ability to do the refit and tools for woodworking etc. I'm just so inexperienced in sailing that getting the right shell worries me, I don't want to spend all those hours and all that money just to find out I've been trying to polish a turd the whole time. I also have concerns that I might buy a boat that looks good but is a nightmare to find parts for when I could have spent a couple of hundred more and got one that is abundant and worth companies making after market parts still. Ideally I don't want to have to do the gel coat until I've had a few run outs and learned to handle it properly for obvious reasons but I have been looking into it as I'm sure that on my budget it will need doing sooner rather than later. I got a bit carried away looking at metal flake coats and things but that can definitely wait until next time it needs doing, I'm sure there'll be hundreds of expenses that take priority over a sparkling finish :) I am looking forward to the restoration almost as much as the sailing at the moment but I want to try and get on the water for a few days this year if possible so it will be done in stages.

I still think people are getting hung up on the canal situation, I have no intention of sailing them all, just a few well planned out routes including rivers and canals. I have an uncle who worked the canals, he has assured me that a lot of the local rivers and canals are 6ft plus. The Thames ring would be worth a look too (thanks @Tranona) but other than a couple of short breaks the majority of the sailing will be on the north wales coast until I'm confident to start venturing south.
 
oldharry said:
Bilge keels and canals are not a good mix, as Daydream beleiver points out.
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Neither was vodka and red bull but I still spent many nights drinking them :) I'm older and wiser now but still not too long in the tooth to let a bit of risk hinder my enjoyment. If taking a short narrow canal is the difference between coming back the same way I came or finding a different route back I have to say that as long as the draught gives me a good few inches leeway i would probably take the risk.

@dancrane I considered a lifting keel but I'd have to compromise parking on a beach for low tide and lose some internal space so that's why I came to the bilge keel conclusion, I may hit a few more shopping trolleys but I can repair the damage easier without the need for stands etc.
 
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