Small boat radar

[lw395]

lw395,

I would not argue with that !

Though maybe what really got those boats was ' Got to be back at the office Monday syndrome ', which I reckon has caused more grief than anything else in the history of recreational sailing...

I don't recall enough about the individual cases to say too much.
While my plan is pretty much to avoid fog, forecasting isn't 100%, reporting of actual conditions leaves a lot to be desired and fog can turn up surprisingly quickly.
I think one of the cases was a textbook 'radar assisted collision'.

Would the others have been moored in the marina if they had no radar?
Maybe, maybe not.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Agree that GPS is vital for that and AIS may help but the only gap that leaves is smallish ships. trawlers etc. that may also be avoiding the big ship channels but that don't have AIS transponders. Even a collision with a 40 ton boat would spoil your day.

I was surprised to find that many of the smaller Calmac ferries - the double enders - don't seem to transmit on AIS. For example, I saw Fishnish - Lochaline, but not Tighnabruaich - Kilchoan, although it passed fairly close to us three times (on different trips - I'm not that slow). On the other hand, we clearly saw the Finlaggan when we were in Loch Fyne and she was eleven miles away in West Loch Tarbet. So much for "line-of-sight only".

They used to use radar before GPS, specifically for entering channels etc in fog.

Indeed, and before that they used lead lines with tallow. Technology moves on.

As Jac says, radar will show things that AIS, GPS or chart plotter won't. I'm not anti AIS but get the feeling that some posters on the various threads are fooling themselves by thinking it's the best safety equipment around, which is far from the truth when considering how many of the (possibly many) vessels in close proximity are actually transmitting and how many others + solid objects aren't.

I completely agree. It is only for the "entering an estuary" business that I think GPS is better; when it comes to "avoiding other stuff in that estuary" then AIS is certainly not a complete answer. Where I sail, not hitting the land is generally more of a concern than not hitting other boats, 'cos there aren't many other boats. My priorities might well be different if I sailed somewhere busier - for a start I'd probably have bought a radar target enhancer rather than an AIS transceiver.

 

[lw395]

Unfortunately, just having it isn't enough. It needs to be switched on and located up top where it can be seen from the helm and practice is needed to understand how to adjust it and, what one's seeing. When we first got ours, many hours were spent practicing in daylight.

Not sure about having it on deck, I prefer to work at a well sorted chart table.
Of course a dual display plotter is ideal, but not for everyone.

I absolutely agree practice using it is key.
It's also good if at least two people on the boat know their way around the set.

 

[lw395]

....
Indeed, and before that they used lead lines with tallow. Technology moves on.

It is only for the "entering an estuary" business that I think GPS is better;......

GPS is still subject to errors are interference. one end of it is out of your control.
Radar is relative to your boat, so errors don't come in from outside.
GPS without a chartplotter can be a slow way to work, charts can be wrong and plotters can fail.

I don't see the point of arguments parallel to 'is a fork better than a spoon', I will just use the tools to hand as best I can.
While one boat I sail has radar, I've enjoyed a few lower-tech sorties this year, sounder, charts, handheld GPS is still enough to do a lot of sailing.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't see the point of arguments parallel to 'is a fork better than a spoon', I will just use the tools to hand as best I can.

Amen to that, brother.

 

[johnphilip]

AIS is going to help you get into an estuary in fog or at night and help to avoid vessels and objects not transmitting? I don't think so.

A plotter takes care of the first and a radar is not going to help you miss lobster pots if you are staring at the screen.

 

[GrahamM376]

A plotter takes care of the first and a radar is not going to help you miss lobster pots if you are staring at the screen.

Neither will a plotter help you if you're not looking at the screen, be sensible. A well tuned radar will show up danbuoys anyway.

 

[jac]

Neither will a plotter help you if you're not looking at the screen, be sensible. A well tuned radar will show up danbuoys anyway.

But sadly not 5l oil canisters painted blue and virtually awash as are used round the Solent on the shallow bits.

 

[hrchivers]

Hi, I fitted a Furuno 1623 a couple of years ago and I'm happy with it (I sail a Sadler 29). There are a few things to consider:

Do you want a stand-alone system or one which links into a plotter/multifunction display. Display screens are power greedy and you will have your own view about single points of failure, or not. If you need a stand alone system then Furuno is it, otherwise all the 'plotter' people have their own radar heads.

On a small boat a 'watchman' mode makes a big difference to power. Essentially the radar sits on standby and powers itself up periodically to check if anything is inside an alarm range. A couple of years ago some of the small multifuction radars did not offer this.

There is a fair difference in the number of wires from the head from a traditional head and a 'digital head'. The Furuno has a thick cable (finger thickness) with a lot of small wires. They recommend against jointing at the mast base, but I did without problem. Digital types have power + signal.

Price: I didn't manage to find one on ebay! I was wary of anything too old - magnetrons do age.

 

[Seajet]

I'm old fashioned & cynical enough that I don't really fancy everything on one display, or one knows what will happen to that display; rather than a depth repeater, for the same money I have a whole second system, and I don't let all the gear talk to each other waypoint to waypoint or they'll develop a sense of humour and gang up on me ( ' we know he dialled in Studland, but let's see if he has the Dunkirk Spirit ' ).

I fitted a swing-out board with the plotter, radar, fishfinder, + things like bino's & HB compasses, which swings across the companionway so as to be visible in the cockpit, or useable at the chart table if cowering below.

This - in cockpit mode - is only just below line of sight when looking forward over the coachroof, sort of on the lines of a jet fighter's Head Up Display; I must say that while those binnacle mounted displays look very snazzy, they make me a bit uneasy about requiring too much peering head down.

Nothing is perfect, it's always a case of practice with whatever one has so as to hopefully be aware of the gotcha's.

One day I'm completely sure we'll all have all the info we need inc night vision displayed on personal visors, but at the moment they're not entirely happy with that on the new F-35 fighter even at £400,000 apiece for ' the electric hat ' !

 

[maxi77]

I'm old fashioned & cynical enough that I don't really fancy everything on one display, or one knows what will happen to that display; rather than a depth repeater, for the same money I have a whole second system, and I don't let all the gear talk to each other waypoint to waypoint or they'll develop a sense of humour and gang up on me ( ' we know he dialled in Studland, but let's see if he has the Dunkirk Spirit ' ).

I fitted a swing-out board with the plotter, radar, fishfinder, + things like bino's & HB compasses, which swings across the companionway so as to be visible in the cockpit, or useable at the chart table if cowering below.

This - in cockpit mode - is only just below line of sight when looking forward over the coachroof, sort of on the lines of a jet fighter's Head Up Display; I must say that while those binnacle mounted displays look very snazzy, they make me a bit uneasy about requiring too much peering head down.

Nothing is perfect, it's always a case of practice with whatever one has so as to hopefully be aware of the gotcha's.

One day I'm completely sure we'll all have all the info we need inc night vision displayed on personal visors, but at the moment they're not entirely happy with that on the new F-35 fighter even at £400,000 apiece for ' the electric hat ' !

Tend to agree withnot having everything on one display for several reasons. Firstly radar and gps have different frames of recerence which can cause confusion. Then there is redundancy, one display is one to go wrong and then what do you use. Multiple displays give a more graceful degradation as things go wrong. Then finally there is size, a typical yacht display with everything on it isveryvery cluttered, not easyto take quick snapshots from as you dodge the pot floats etc. Easy to look at and interpret displays make for better visual work.

As for pilots helmet displays you realy have this continual discourse over whst is the minimum information, ideal, and what is too much. The reality is that in a single seat fast jet there is actually far more information available than the pilot can handle at any one time, though at different times all thedata will be needed. In some respects the old system had its benefits as the pilot could scan his cockpit to gather the info neede at that moment. I used to do thesamemyself on the old SSN ship control display panel, almost 6 x6 feet of gauges and displays.

 

[macd]

B&G/Simrad/Lowrance 'Broadband' draws 18W when transmitting, 2W on standby and is 'instant on'...no watching numbers clicking down from 90. Acuity is superb, even at very close range (less than 50 metres).
Cost about £1200 (radome and cabling only). Needs a compatible MFD/chartplotter.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I was surprised to find that many of the smaller Calmac ferries - the double enders - don't seem to transmit on AIS. For example, I saw Fishnish - Lochaline, but not Tighnabruaich - Kilchoan, although it passed fairly close to us three times (on different trips - I'm not that slow). On the other hand, we clearly saw the Finlaggan when we were in Loch Fyne and she was eleven miles away in West Loch Tarbet. So much for "line-of-sight only".



Indeed, and before that they used lead lines with tallow. Technology moves on.



I completely agree. It is only for the "entering an estuary" business that I think GPS is better; when it comes to "avoiding other stuff in that estuary" then AIS is certainly not a complete answer. Where I sail, not hitting the land is generally more of a concern than not hitting other boats, 'cos there aren't many other boats. My priorities might well be different if I sailed somewhere busier - for a start I'd probably have bought a radar target enhancer rather than an AIS transceiver.

A target enhancer will make you visible to larger vessels that are required to carry radar but won't help with smaller yachts which aren't and might not have radar for the same reasons that you haven't got it. eg cost/space/power.
As for entering estuaries in poor vis, my advice is, don't do it! Find somewhere to anchor or moor till vis improves.

 

[Seajet]

A true example of a Scottish radar target enhancer...

On Harrier trials on the range at West Freugh near Stranraer, my part of the pre-flight prep' was done once the onboard cine cameras were loaded with film, switches armed and panelled up, so I was volunteered to help with the weather balloon, one is released before each trial sortie.

With an avionics chum I used to put together the assembly to be attached to the balloon outside, consisting of the transmitter sonde, and the radar reflector to hang below it; this was a shiny gold tin foil Christmas tree decoration, straight out of the ' Merry Xmas ' packet.

Seemed to work well, so there's your answer Jumbleduck, if asked just say you're a prototype trials boat for Raymarine and it's all hush-hush away from prying eyes in the Solent !

 

[Uricanejack]

Not sure about having it on deck, I prefer to work at a well sorted chart table.
Of course a dual display plotter is ideal, but not for everyone.

I absolutely agree practice using it is key.
It's also good if at least two people on the boat know their way around the set.

I have a RADAR on my boat. it came with it. Its on the Chart table. I have never used it.
The GPS is right beside it. used occasionally.
I find in practice I am on deck in the cockpit at the helm keeping a lookout. If I had a display in cockpit where i could see it it would be of much more practical use.

The GPS I can go down plot a position and come back out on deck quite quickly. was good off shore. I don't use it inshore except for speed and time.
With RADAR you need to observe the screen over time to see whats moving and "plot" whats around. Hence my desire to see the real world at the same time.

 

[Seajet]

This is why a lot of radars nowadays have daylight viewable screens and are fitted in the cockpit, an extreme analogy with having the set by the chart table might be the old Sea Vixen aircraft, where the poor old navigator / weapons officer was shut inside the fuselage with only a tiny window, and an alloy lid closed on top, a horrible place known as ' the coal hole ' !

It would be worth practicing with your radar though, if and when you have someone trustworthy on the helm; it will be useful some day, but radar takes a lot of getting used to, it is NOTHING like as easy to interpret as on the movies !

I have a small book ' how to use radar ' or similar, about £10 from a chandlery; I don't think I'd have had a chance without it.

 

[Uricanejack]

Your points are well made. A good book is a good idea. Better yet a course.
Mine is actually relatively modern. A Furuno can't recall the no. Little day light LED screen. Basic heads ups un-stabilized, no imputes from anything else. Today's are much fancier.
The previous owner fitted it in what he though was the ideal spot. Unfortunately not a spot I would choose now.
One of my restrictions is the lack of an auto pilot. One of the reasons I am rarely bellow deck.
Although I do know how to use the RADAR. your point on practice is important. The area in which I am definitely deficient is not having a reliable helmsman, Who could steer accurately enough by compass. And understand what i am trying to say. Her lack of understanding being my lack of making it clear. Something my main crew and I should practice.
Blind pilot-age is a skill which requires practice.

Some thing my son may enjoy, He is not an enthusiastic sailor but he does like gadgets, Getting him to be my RADAR observer might be a good plan.

 

[lw395]

Your points are well made. A good book is a good idea. Better yet a course.
Mine is actually relatively modern. A Furuno can't recall the no. Little day light LED screen. Basic heads ups un-stabilized, no imputes from anything else. Today's are much fancier.
The previous owner fitted it in what he though was the ideal spot. Unfortunately not a spot I would choose now.
One of my restrictions is the lack of an auto pilot. One of the reasons I am rarely bellow deck.
Although I do know how to use the RADAR. your point on practice is important. The area in which I am definitely deficient is not having a reliable helmsman, Who could steer accurately enough by compass. And understand what i am trying to say. Her lack of understanding being my lack of making it clear. Something my main crew and I should practice.
Blind pilot-age is a skill which requires practice.

Some thing my son may enjoy, He is not an enthusiastic sailor but he does like gadgets, Getting him to be my RADAR observer might be a good plan.

All fairly familiar.
I think it's a big ask to man a boat effectively in fog singlehanded. I don't sail singlehanded very much at all.
If I did I think I'd be serious about autopilots.
Autopilot is a big plus in fog anyway, many good helms are all over the shop in fog.
In fact I suspect most of us take a while to get 'dialled in' to steering a good course in bad vis without much wind input, if it's the first time we've had to do it this season?
It's a lot harder than racing upwind to the tell-tales IMHO.

None of the boats I sail are primarily set up for singlehanded or even 'bloke plus SWMBO who is not that involved' if you see what I mean.
I think that influences where you want the radar among other things.

 

[ghostlymoron]

A reliable battery monitor is essential.

Semantics I'm afraid but its not ESSENTIAL or every boat would have one. Agree it would be useful but I haven't got one.

 

[lw395]

Semantics I'm afraid but its not ESSENTIAL or every boat would have one. Agree it would be useful but I haven't got one.

I think it's fairly important in the context of Seajet's minimalist electrics and placing a high value on the availability of the radar.
I might say it's pretty close to the essence of his scheme, so essential is a fair word.

You've taken a different approach. Fine.