Slower with new, laminate sails????

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swanny

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Last year I bought all new sails for my Contest 36ketch (masthead, fully battened main with slighty more area, water line length 8.80mtr (28.11ft) and I have enjoyed much better performance in lighter airs due to better shape. A Kiwi prop probably helps a tad too which feathers. Pointing has dramatically improved to such an extent that in Flensburger Fjord on the return to the marina I now need only two tacks as apposed to many! However, closer to the wind I find I am slower. On a reach previously in say 15knots apparent, I would regularly hit 7 to 8 knots. Now it's 6 to 6.5. I have tweaked the sails to give a deeper draught as best as my poor knowledge allows (book with pictures in one hand, wheel in the other). The only thing I can think of is perhaps the old sails created stronger drive with a fuller shape and importantly perhaps the forestay was not sooo tight. The sailmaker tuned my rig this time and I recognise the forestay is tighter than I would normally have done so. Can it be that a bit more slack in the forestay will give me more power? Ignorant perhaps but hey, I'm not proud! if this is so, is it ok just to alter the back stay bottle screw or do I need to fit a specialised tensioner (the simpler in operation the better!)
 
I wouldnt expect a heavy 36 ft ketch with a short water line to reach 8kn in a 15kt breeze - so are you sure its not your instruments / memory at play here?

are you sure you are pointing at the same angle? just because you can go nearer to the wind doesnt mean that you wont slow down the nearer the wind you get.

trouble is there are so many variables that you cant really give a sensible answer, best either get a racing skipper on board with you or the sailmaker.
 
Yes, she is heavy - empty 8123kg! But she does sail extremely well. I'm no expert so I try to occasionally drag experts aboard. You can see the experts face drop when he realises that his lighter and technically faster boat doesn't sail much faster, if at all. I haven't logged detailed accounts of the before and after performance but on a close reach in the same wind she is definately slower, gps, log, wet finger in the wind, she is slower! I know there are variables but it's quite a large margin of difference. At great effort I might this year put the old sails on for an hour and then change to the new assuming the wind is the same after this time and log everything down to be sure. The old genny was a baggy affair and even winched in as tight as I could get it still had some deep draught to it, so close hauled for me was perhaps only a close reach. On another point about my boat, I can't stand these boat reviews that denegrate the previous model!! The A to Z of boats in Yachting Monthly completely missed out my model of contest but still had the gaul to mention that the newer model of 36 was a much better sailing machine. I don't think he missed out any of the Westerly models by the way. I guess I have to assume that the journalist perhaps, maybe, had sailed in my model so had the experience to say what he did....but I doubt it! It is interesting to watch the progress of say the Halberg Rassy underwater shape change over the years. Not known as fast boats, their longer, encapsulated fin keels of yester year have been gradually changed to something extraordinarily simliar to my 1979 underwater shape. Gone are the longer encapsulated keels, now they sport bolted on iron affairs, shorter and heavier at the bottom (HR36). Without any tweaking or balancing of my sails, on a close reach or close hauled, I just leave her to it. No autopilot, no fine tuning, just pull everything tight and let her go. Depending on waves, she never swings more than say 5 degrees either side of her course. Is this normal? I'm no expert and I would like an opinion on this, but my waterline length perhaps increases as she heels and squats down in the water which surely means she can reach 8knots. Dunno, sounds plausible? .
 
I agree with matelot that it's very difficult making comparisons from one week/year to the next. One of the best ways is to race regularly in the same fleet in different conditions.

I would expect a boat of your size & weight with a long waterline to do about 6 1/2-7 knots in the fairly light conditions you mention, but the difficulty is judging exactly the wind angle and speed, and sea-state. As for GPS, even in the Baltic, currents of half a knot or more are quite common.

BTW, all HR bolt-on keels for many years have been lead.
 
You will lose speed if you point higher, a reach is not a beat. The only thing you can do is work on the trim, rig tension etc etc preferably with the sailmaker in the end. Have you scrubbed and antifouled?
 
I bought a laminate genoa 2 years ago and the cut was different. The car positions had to be changed a lot from where I was used to. On a Heavenly Twins the designer noted that 2 pin stops in the wrong direction take a know of speed off. A HT is more reliant than most on the genoa so it may not be the same with you, but the new style of laminate genoa has taken some getting used to.
 
Got to say I agree with Kermujwhatsit. Maybe I'm a case of the bad ethnic minority that got religion (hope you are not too young to understand my non PC saying there) bbecause I firmly believe that the only way to judge how your boat goes or even to learn how to get the best out of her is to race her. Doesnt have to be the serious 10 crew sat on the rail type of racing - just the ordinary Corinthian type does wonders for your sailing skill.

Your plan to try out the old sails is the only way of determining wqhether you have lost something or not and even then it wont tell you why.
 
Although I agree entirely with theposts saying it could be any one of a number of things....

The forestay tension would be my first port of call. Towards the end of the season we fitted an adjustable and claibrated forestay.
The results have been amazing. Previously we had the forestay set up very tight, and whilst we were massively quick and very close winded in stronger winds we were very lacking in pace in the light stuff.
In our first light wind outing where we could slacken the forestay it was like sailing a different boat, much, much quicker.

So if your forestay is much tighter than before then you will have gained the pointing and heavy wind speed at the expense of reaching and light air speed.
If you have a masthead rig, a simple backstay adjuster can go a long way to having adjustable forestay tension.
 
Try 'brushing' ie sail alongside another yacht helmed by a friend, and when boat speeds/pointing angles are the same, you do your alterations to trim/tension etc and 'friend',tries to hold original course etc. helpful if similar yachts but not essential. This method has the advantage of an immediate indication of your alterations on your yachts performance. As previously stated pointing higher will probably result in slower speedthrough the water, and when you free off you need to alter the position of draft ie tension in halyards and or forstay, and the sails will take some getting used to, good luck and have fun /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
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