Sloop with 2 Masts and 2 Headsails

[jac]

Reading the latest edition of YM (page 40) and see a very attractive picture of an old cutter headed yawl at anchor.

Caption on the picture - The 100 year old SLOOP ...........


So did I miss the notice that Sloops had suddenly gained extra masts and sails or do YM not know the difference???

 

[LadyInBed]

You just can't get the staff these days

 

[jonic]

What does it say on the inventory?

 

[jac]

What does it say on the inventory?

Chart plotter chip included , no sheets

 

[jonic]

Chart plotter chip included , no sheets

Small claims court then.

Should come with sheets and pillow cases,

 

[snowleopard]

A sloop of war in Nelson's day typically had 3 masts.

OTOH in today's terminology a sloop has 1 mast and 1 headsail (or more, but not set at the same time).

 

[prv]

A sloop of war in Nelson's day typically had 3 masts.

OTOH in today's terminology a sloop has 1 mast and 1 headsail (or more, but not set at the same time).

And in between those two terms, it meant something we would now call a cutter, with the distinction that the principle forestay was tacked to the bowsprit (which was therefore particularly sturdy and could not be run inboard), whereas a cutter had the forestay to the stemhead and hence the bowsprit could be made moveable, and tended to be longer and less solidly stayed since breaking it didn't mean losing the mainmast. Both rigs would have set both jib and staysail.

At one time, "ketch" denoted something with a round, cargo-carrying hull, never mind how many masts it had.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

A sloop of war in Nelson's day typically had 3 masts.

OTOH in today's terminology a sloop has 1 mast and 1 headsail (or more, but not set at the same time).

Actually a sloop could have any number of masts but with either a lieutenant or master and commander in charge rather than a post captain. Still I believe that even then it was just a quirk of the RN and that a outside of the services a sloop was still defined as today.

I'll stop being a pedant now.

 

[prv]

Still I believe that even then it was just a quirk of the RN and that a outside of the services a sloop was still defined as today.

Nope, don't think so. I'd have to re-read my John Leather book to be sure, but I think it has a number of illustrations of "sloops" that have square sails (possibly just one or two like a topsail schooner) and multiple headsails but are not Royal Navy ships.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

Nope, don't think so. I'd have to re-read my John Leather book to be sure, but I think it has a number of illustrations of "sloops" that have square sails (possibly just one or two like a topsail schooner) and multiple headsails but are not Royal Navy ships.

Pete

I think it's explained in Master and Commander but I don't have either of my copies to hand to check. Nor do I have my Oxford Companion of Ships and the Sea. Most boats still retained their square sails in that era so I don't doubt that they were flown from sloops as well, but my main point was is that only the RN would describe a multi-masted ship as a sloop and on that point I intend to stick to my guns.

 

[prv]

my main point was is that only the RN would describe a multi-masted ship as a sloop and on that point I intend to stick to my guns.

You may be right on that, but it certainly wasn't "still defined as today". Nothing of any size was, because without modern winches, blocks, and thin strong lines, it was far more practical to break sail area up rather than try to deal with one massive headsail.

Pete

 

[Rossynant]

my main point was is that only the RN would describe a multi-masted ship as a sloop and on that point I intend to stick to my guns.

Only a Lt from other block - may I hand an ammo to both sides?

Sloop - déformation anglophone de chaloupe - originally chaloupes had any number of mast that was suitable really, just were small open ships, rowboats.
So Sloop was in Royal Navy just a small ship, indeed. "Sloop-of-war"

Bermuda Sloop, then, was a small ship with one sail on mast (no topsails), most comonly singlemasted, but bigger made with 2-3 masts. Originally they had gaff sails, not "bermuda sails" - these were incorporated later, from Dutch 'bezaans' (this actually mean 'mizzen')

Schlup in german means small boat, chaloupe, oder tender...

Sloepen (vissloep) - as were build for fishing North Sea - were two mast gaff schooners, or later sometimes also ketches, with fishhold amidships. They were in fact based on french fishing boats - chaloupes - , but not to confuse with logger (lougre) using... lugger sails. Another meaning of sloep is chaloupe - small open boat or ships tender.

Coming out of this: Greement de Sloop (in French) - had one mast, stayed to standing bowsprit, original definition of sloop as said above.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chaloupe_par_N_Ozanne.jpg

 

[lenseman]

You just can't get the staff these days

and the ones they have got don't know about getting the software right when they change servers! :O



.

 

[Woodlouse]

Only a Lt from other block - may I hand an ammo to both sides?

Sloop - déformation anglophone de chaloupe - originally chaloupes had any number of mast that was suitable really, just were small open ships, rowboats.
So Sloop was in Royal Navy just a small ship, indeed. "Sloop-of-war"

Bermuda Sloop, then, was a small ship with one sail on mast (no topsails), most comonly singlemasted, but bigger made with 2-3 masts. Originally they had gaff sails, not "bermuda sails" - these were incorporated later, from Dutch 'bezaans' (this actually mean 'mizzen')

Schlup in german means small boat, chaloupe, oder tender...

Sloepen (vissloep) - as were build for fishing North Sea - were two mast gaff schooners, or later sometimes also ketches, with fishhold amidships. They were in fact based on french fishing boats - chaloupes - , but not to confuse with logger (lougre) using... lugger sails. Another meaning of sloep is chaloupe - small open boat or ships tender.

Coming out of this: Greement de Sloop (in French) - had one mast, stayed to standing bowsprit, original definition of sloop as said above.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chaloupe_par_N_Ozanne.jpg

We'll stick to english definitions for now. And disregard the bermudans who's traditional idea of a sloop was a topsail schooner. Trying to define anything gets rather tricky when you go back a couple of hundred years because with regional variations just about everything becomes a term for everything else.

 

[prv]

http://s1168.photobucket.com/albums...dadec646cf7da920cc131980a4822_zps3701690a.jpg

Here's the 18th century sloop I was thinking of. Only one mast, but three headsails and two squares.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

http://s1168.photobucket.com/albums...dadec646cf7da920cc131980a4822_zps3701690a.jpg

Here's the 18th century sloop I was thinking of. Only one mast, but three headsails and two squares.

Pete

I can't say where offhand, but I've seen very similar vessels described as cutters in other sources.

Not being at home is starting to bug me now. I've a copy of Chapman's Architectura Navalis Mercatoria and it'd be interesting to see what else it says.

 

[jac]

Wow, sort of Fred drift without being Fred drift! Was more concerned that YM couldn't tell a sloop from a yawl. Hadn't expected the interesting diversion. Have to say I thought the RN definition at least late 18th century was she was ship rigged (I.e square sails) but did not have a full gun deck, which would have made her a frigate.

 

[prv]

I can't say where offhand, but I've seen very similar vessels described as cutters in other sources.

By the terminology of the time the rigs were fairly similar. The difference between "sloop" and "cutter" included differences of hull form - sloops were shallower and rounder, where cutters were deeper and hence presumably more weatherly. Cutters were built more for speed, and had proportionately larger sails (two of the 18th century sources quoted in Leather say that). Plus the difference in bowsprit arrangement as previously mentioned.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

By the terminology of the time the rigs were fairly similar. The difference between "sloop" and "cutter" included differences of hull form - sloops were shallower and rounder, where cutters were deeper and hence presumably more weatherly. Cutters were built more for speed, and had proportionately larger sails (two of the 18th century sources quoted in Leather say that). Plus the difference in bowsprit arrangement as previously mentioned.

Pete

Fair enough.

 

[Grumpybear]

Fair enough.

I think the names by the late eighteenth century had more to do with function than rigs. Sloops In the RN were small cruising vessels, used for patrol work, convoy escort etc to support the larger frigates, while cutters were generally used to carry messages, orders, reports etc between fleets and shore HQs.

By the middle of the 20th century, things had got even more complicated: frigates had been reinvented (having been replaced in the 1880s by cruisers) as anti submarine escorts; sloops had become anti aircraft escorts with some asw capability - the fmous Captain Johnny Walker led a group odf sloops - and corvettes (formerly a French term denoting the old sloops) were now smaller, cheaper, slower ASW ships. Fast forward to the present, and sloops and corvettes have disappeared, while the sloop's AAW function has been assumed by the destroyer, a term which originally denoted something else entirely.