Single handed spinnaker gybing on an Elan 37

[bbg]

There appear to be a variety of 'snatch block' options fvor barber haulers - blocks, soft shackles, stainless shackles. Are there any advantages in moving away from the traditional block type?

Depends on the boat setup. I have sailed on boats with floating tweakers. They could be adjusted fore and aft along the gunwale as well as in/out (or up/down, depending on how you want to describe it). The "block" was just a carbine hook so could easily be snapped on or off a sheet. The great advantage was you could use it for spinny, Code 0, genoa or jib sheet.

A small snatch block would reduce friction but be much more expensive. A non-snatch block (it doesn't need to be large) would need to be rigged in advance. I'm sure you could get by with just an Antal low-friction ring, but again it would need to be rigged in advance.

One tip is to double up the line to the tweaker if the loads will be high. So the line goes from the boat up to the tweaker, and back down to a block on the gunwale. It doubles the mechanical advantage.

 

[Birdseye]

To be serious for a moment, on a boat like mine that is a fast cruiser rather than a racer, would using tweakers allow me to get rid of guys? I am thinking of a block on the sheet with a rope running to the toe rail block noirmally used for the guys. Or am I missing something?

And whilst I am asking basic questions, how do you all go about repacking spinnakers. We rarely have more than one spinny run in a race so it tends to get stuffed back into its bag any old how, to be taken home by me, dried if necessary and then repacked after rubber banding on the lounge floor. Do you rubber band or use woolies? Are you set up to repack properly on board and if so how are you set up?

 

[flaming]

To be serious for a moment, on a boat like mine that is a fast cruiser rather than a racer, would using tweakers allow me to get rid of guys? I am thinking of a block on the sheet with a rope running to the toe rail block noirmally used for the guys. Or am I missing something?

I wouldn't want to gybe a Starlight without lazy guys - means end for ending the pole onto a loaded sheet. Not sure you'd be able to push the pole out enough to get it back on the mast in anything over drifting conditions.

And whilst I am asking basic questions, how do you all go about repacking spinnakers. We rarely have more than one spinny run in a race so it tends to get stuffed back into its bag any old how, to be taken home by me, dried if necessary and then repacked after rubber banding on the lounge floor. Do you rubber band or use woolies? Are you set up to repack properly on board and if so how are you set up?

If we're using the same kite for 2 consecutive runs we don't repack, just drop into the forepeak, and hoist out again. If the legs are short we don't even bother unclipping the halyard.

If repacking on the boat I find a coloured (Not white) tape and run it. When I find a corner, if it's a clew it gets thrown to one side, if it's a head I hang it from the handle of the hatch. I then follow the tape to the other end and do the oposite. I then run the other tape from the head that's hung up and throw that clew in the opposite direction to the first one. If in a hurry that's enough and the kite gets shoved into the bag, then the clews clipped into the loops on the bag, and finally the head. If more time (e.g. between races or on the way in after racing) I would also run the foot (white tape) and be a little more careful to put the middle of the kite in the bag first and match the colours of the clews to the coloured loops on the bag. But that's all.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely no need to wool or rubber band a kite on a 35 footer. Or a 40 footer. It is also now against the rules, as it breaks 50 (I think) which is the new rule on littering. A clarification question was submitted that asked "does this apply if it's for the purpose of wooling kites" and the answer was yes. And another question asked "does this apply if it is biodegradable" and the answer was yes too.

 

[awol]

Rule 55 TRASH DISPOSAL
A competitor shall not intentionally put trash in the water.

Sailmakers are now attaching velcro tags to sails to allow "banding". Throwing water bombs at another competitor during a race can also be protested as can throwing a used split pin onto their deck (though not under Rule 55 unless you miss!)

 

[Birdseye]

I wouldn't want to gybe a Starlight without lazy guys - means end for ending the pole onto a loaded sheet. Not sure you'd be able to push the pole out enough to get it back on the mast in anything over drifting conditions.

when gybing the kite we simply run the mast end of the pole up its track, clip it on the opposite guy and then run it down the track again. Why should we not be able to do this if we had just single sheets? Cant see why it would make a difference given that we are running dead downwind at that point anyway.

If we're using the same kite for 2 consecutive runs we don't repack, just drop into the forepeak, and hoist out again. If the legs are short we don't even bother unclipping the halyard.

If repacking on the boat I find a coloured (Not white) tape and run it. When I find a corner, if it's a clew it gets thrown to one side, if it's a head I hang it from the handle of the hatch. I then follow the tape to the other end and do the oposite. I then run the other tape from the head that's hung up and throw that clew in the opposite direction to the first one. If in a hurry that's enough and the kite gets shoved into the bag, then the clews clipped into the loops on the bag, and finally the head. If more time (e.g. between races or on the way in after racing) I would also run the foot (white tape) and be a little more careful to put the middle of the kite in the bag first and match the colours of the clews to the coloured loops on the bag. But that's all.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely no need to wool or rubber band a kite on a 35 footer. Or a 40 footer. It is also now against the rules, as it breaks 50 (I think) which is the new rule on littering. A clarification question was submitted that asked "does this apply if it's for the purpose of wooling kites" and the answer was yes. And another question asked "does this apply if it is biodegradable" and the answer was yes too.

We cannot ( or to be accurate I wont allow) useing the forepeak - its fully upholstered and full of bedding. But I guess that the companionway would be an alternative. Sounds as if we need a more up to date turtle.

Interesting last comment that I wasnt aware of. Mind you last week we were drifitng downwind in all of 1kn of wind trying to get the boat going, and one of the crew commented that he couldnt see a single square meter of water that didnt have some junk floating on the surface. You dont normally see much of it because of waves breaking up the surface, but he was right. It was disgusting. Having said which rubber bands are biodegradeable.

As for split pins, I've always found that looking at the opponents masthead, then getting together and all of us looking at the masthead usually works Mind you in our standard of club racing I have in the past seen someone get away with forcing an opponent to tack by shouting starboard - when he was on port!

 

[flaming]

when gybing the kite we simply run the mast end of the pole up its track, clip it on the opposite guy and then run it down the track again. Why should we not be able to do this if we had just single sheets? Cant see why it would make a difference given that we are running dead downwind at that point anyway.

Huh? Do you gybe like this

Which is dip pole gybing

Or like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2WXyulZtnk

Which is end for end gybing?


And why can't I embed 2 videos!?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

On our Starlight 39 it is dip pole only, and I suspect the 35 is the same.

Also, the pole has to be pulled up the mast track at the inboard end so there is room for the pole to pass through inside the forestay, just to make it more fun.

 

[Birdseye]

Yes we dip pole. The great lumpy alloy pole we have makes end for ending much harder work.

So far we almost always use both guys and sheets - they are in fact spliced together. Which makes them heavy of course. So I was thinking that tweakers would allow us to strap the kite down when gybing and also to let us get away with just a sheet thus making them lighter

Your two posts have an implication Flaming that we really dont know what we are doing. Thats only half true :ambivalence: - we've done a lot of racing but in the bristol channel which isnt exactly full of **** hot hardened IRC race types from whom to learn. And we are racing a family cruiser to boot. So we know the basics but not the refinements if I can put it that way. We arent anything like slick but we are reasonably keen.

2nd in this series

 

[flaming]

Yes we dip pole. The great lumpy alloy pole we have makes end for ending much harder work.

So far we almost always use both guys and sheets - they are in fact spliced together. Which makes them heavy of course. So I was thinking that tweakers would allow us to strap the kite down when gybing and also to let us get away with just a sheet thus making them lighter

It is not possible to dip pole on single sheets. The only time that could conceivably work would be very light winds where you could pull the sheet by hand to get it to the pole, but all that will do is collapse the sail mid gybe. But with any wind in the sail, how are you going to get the new guy into the pole?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I had mine joined too, but changed to separate lines. This makes it easier to sort out any tangles, by removing one line and leaving the other working, and also means we can take off the lazy lines in light airs. In fact, I had one sheet made up with 6mm line to reduce weight. It is braid on braid, but dyneema would have been lighter (but more expensive!)

 

[LouisBrowne]

There seems to be a bit of confusion here.
The point of separate sheets and guys is that, when gybing, you control the spinnaker with the sheets and as a result there is no load on the guys, which makes it far easier for the bowman.
If you have a very small boat you can use single sheets, in which case you need barber haulers to convert the windward 'sheet' into a guy. This is only possible on small boats because, when you gybe, you are, of necessity, working with a loaded sheet and guy.
Using barber haulers as well as separate sheets and guys is a refinement of the separate sheet / guy scenario in that it enables you to stabilise the sail and /or, according to Flaming, to trim it better.
Using barber haulers to stabilise the sail does not avoid the need for separate sheets and guys if the spinnaker is anything other than a rather small one.

 

[Birdseye]

It is not possible to dip pole on single sheets. The only time that could conceivably work would be very light winds where you could pull the sheet by hand to get it to the pole, but all that will do is collapse the sail mid gybe. But with any wind in the sail, how are you going to get the new guy into the pole?

It seemed to me that tweakers led out from the same widest hull point as the guys normally use would bring the kite sheet to within range of the jaws of the pole bearing in mind that the pole can be brought back at right andles to the centreline of the boat. Obviously I dont know if this is feasible without being on board and trying it.

Actually, I have th lite at home at the moment - I'll go and measure its foot. That should give an idea. Back in 5 mins.



The foot of the kite is abvout 10m which allowing for curvature when flying would be maybe 6 meters before allowing for any inwards pull from tweakers. The beam is 3.5 metres and of course the sheets come inwaqrds from the clew towards the block at the stern. So I dont see that there would be any great issue in getting the jaws onto the sheet albeit would not be at the clew and the pole would need to be pushed forwards to get it to the clew.

 

[micha571]

To be serious for a moment, on a boat like mine that is a fast cruiser rather than a racer, would using tweakers allow me to get rid of guys? I am thinking of a block on the sheet with a rope running to the toe rail block noirmally used for the guys. Or am I missing something?

Don't know your size of boat and spin. We use a single sheet-setup only (no separate sheets/guys) on a 75sqm spin. Works well. Tweakers are low-friction-rings, spliced onto dyneema lines and through a block attached to the toe rail. Gybes are end-for-end.

 

[Birdseye]

Don't know your size of boat and spin. We use a single sheet-setup only (no separate sheets/guys) on a 75sqm spin. Works well. Tweakers are low-friction-rings, spliced onto dyneema lines and through a block attached to the toe rail. Gybes are end-for-end.

Boat is 35 ft and the kite is somewhere round 90 sqm - less rather than more. You sound to be doing what I was wondering about. Next question is - are there any real gains to make it worth swapping from sheets and guys to sheets and tweakers?

 

[flaming]

You sound to be doing what I was wondering about.

NO! He's end for ending! That makes single sheets possible. He's also at the absolute max (I would guess) where you would want to. X332s used to run end for end and separate sheets and guys.

You are dip poling.

You CANNOT use single sheets and guys when you dip pole.

 

[Birdseye]

You tell me that I cannot and you may be right. But you arent telling me why it wont work. And I really do not see the relevance of pole dipping / end for ending. In both cases you have to get the jaws round the sheet. In end for ending the pole end is a bit more inboard at first but running the mast end up the track achieves exactly the same for the dip pole.

I ought to add that in light winds ( 5 or so knots) we do use single sheets anyway, but no tweakers

 

[flaming]

You tell me that I cannot and you may be right. But you arent telling me why it wont work. And I really do not see the relevance of pole dipping / end for ending. In both cases you have to get the jaws round the sheet. In end for ending the pole end is a bit more inboard at first but running the mast end up the track achieves exactly the same for the dip pole.

I ought to add that in light winds ( 5 or so knots) we do use single sheets anyway, but no tweakers

How are you proposing to get the new sheet into the end of the pole when it's powered up and you can't grab it and pull it into the jaws? If you look at all the videos of dip poling on this thread you will see that the new guy goes into the pole jaws at the bow, low down. This is mainly because that's the only place where you can actually reach the end of the pole from on deck. So the new guy has to go there. How are you going to get a sheet that is doing the job of controlling the sail to the bow? And even if you had an exceedingly long track and could get the inboard end of the pole high enough to be able to get the jaws close to the rail, you meet the next problem.

When end for ending the weight of the pole is taken by the uphaul when the pole is being maneuvered, so the bowman has full control, and isn't having to hold the thing up. Try that dip poling and the uphaul has to be eased by the pit, so you're either coordinating 2 people trying to hook that new guy, or you'll have to slacken the uphaul completely and have the bowman heft it around trying to hook the sheet on a rolling deck with an unstable kite. And with a pole that will only swing or lift - you can't actually move it freely in all dimensions - just in a sphere. Sort of like a drunken hook the duck with a 9 foot pole!

Whereas with an end to end the old guy it tripped out of the jaws, then the pole off the mast, the bowman then pushes the pole across and hooks the new guy, then pushes the pole out and puts the inboard end on the mast.

 

[micha571]

Flaming has it right, single sheets and dip-pole gybes won't work.
If you want to change to single sheets and get rid of the additional guys, then you will have to gybe end-for-end. If that works on your boat, depends on if your spinpole ends are identical and if the pole is not too long or too heavy to be handled by your bowman. But a 90 sqm spin could just be too big for end-for-ending.

 

[Birdseye]

End for end wouldnt work - the pole is a bit too meaty to do things that way on a regular basis, though the foredeck man ( who is a bit gorrilla like!) had a senior moment last week and did do an end for end.

However I am less sure about flamings comments because there is no difficulty in running the inboard end far enough up the mast track to get the outboard end where you want it height wise and the placing of the uphaul and downhaul on the pole means that they dont need any adjustment to do that ie the outer pole end goes down as much as the inner end goes up and the pole pivots around its middle. The rigging allows us to bring the pole right back to amidships. And I was thinking that maybe hauling in n the tweakers would bring the sheets in enough to allow the bowman to hook the pole end over the sheet. When previously in light winds we have run with a single lightweight sheet, this is effectively what we have done

The only way I will know if its possible is to try it. I appreciate everyones assistance and I will give it a go in non race conditions and let you know if it is possible.

 

[flaming]

The only way I will know if its possible is to try it. I appreciate everyones assistance and I will give it a go in non race conditions and let you know if it is possible.

Please video it, I could do with a laugh.