Seajet
...
Blackbeard,
I was lucky enough to see that Sunderland too; she's now well looked after, though sadly not local ;
http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/sunderland.htm
Silly question about small seaplanes
- Thread starter Greenheart
- Start date
Blackbeard,
I was lucky enough to see that Sunderland too; she's now well looked after, though sadly not local ;
http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/sunderland.htm
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
So, is every third house in Alaska owned by a cut-rate aero-engine mechanic? I wonder what makes seaplanes so 'everyday' there, when the situation here, even with plenty of landing space, is so prohibitive?
I'm surprised the microlite variety aren't common, here. There's no shortage of young loonies ready to risk it all in them.
To an extent yes. If you look at the many planes they're usually fairly primitive and are designed to be fixed by the pilot using the tools he/she's carrying as much as possible. Aero-engines are really only just starting to pick up the complexity of modern car engines. They're still mostly big capacity, low revving air-cooled with dual ignition and fuel systems for redundancy. They're a little less worried about following the rules out there too. The main issue with all amphibians though is the horrendous drag from either the boat-shaped hull or the floats. With the floats it's really obvious as it'll be based on an undercarriage only version which will have a better cruise, climb and top speed, better range, better fuel consumption and greater load-carrying ability. That's why float planes are always big old high-drag low speed things like the Beaver, Norseman, Cessna 190, etc. - anything with a decent cruise speed really suffers.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
So, is every third house in Alaska owned by a cut-rate aero-engine mechanic? I wonder what makes seaplanes so 'everyday' there, when the situation here, even with plenty of landing space, is so prohibitive?
I'm surprised the microlite variety aren't common, here. There's no shortage of young loonies ready to risk it all in them.
Very popular in Canada. Like many things, if the environment is appropriate then the technology will follow. Canada and Alaska are littered with thousands of lakes that are only accessible by air, so if people want to visit for hunting shooting and fishing the only way is by seaplane. The lakes are generally very calm in the short 3/4 months of the summer when they are not frozen over and ideal for landing on floats. Back in the 1970's I recall fitting out a number of tourist planes with Avons and Seagulls for use on remote lakes.
More recently I flew from Corfu to Paxos in a seaplane that ran regular routes up and down the Ionian, based in Gouvia marina. Great experience - grandchildren thought it was the only way to go - much better than the boat!. Only lasted about 3 or 4 years before it went bust.
As others have said the conditions in UK are just not right for seaplanes.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Float planes
All that has been said is correct. The regulatory requirements are huge. This is not a UK requirement but an international agreement known as the Chicago Convention when all countries came to an agreement on civil aviation regulations to permit international travel. The requirements for tiny personal and experimental planes are becoming a little more lenient in individual countries but are still very detailed. Basically because they don't want private nutters crashing their planes into population.
Anyway a float plane is a modified land plane with floats. These may have retractable wheels for landing. A set of amphibious floats might cost nearly as much as the plane. The Canadians like to exchange the floats in the winter for skis.
A sea plane is a plane with fuselage under body shaped like a speed boat. They usually have floats on wing tips. They may have retractable under carriage for landing or coming up a ramp from the water.
During second world war some impressive sea planes were made. The Catalina was one famous American type Grumman made a series and of course the English made the Sunderland and similar. Today I don't think there are any large sea planes made making the old ones valuable.
Generally a sea plane can land on rougher water while a float plane is really only for very flat lakes or bays.
The Catalina during 2ndWW operated a service from Perth to Ceylon. It took about 12 people on the flight known as the flight of the double sunrise. Taking about 28 hrs in one leg at about 120 knots. It was the only air link with UK and you only traveled on a "must fly " basis. The Catalina had a huge range for sea patrol work. (and was very noisy)
Some years back I met an American retired couple who were traveling the world in their Grumman sea plane. A twin engined mid size about 5 tonne Max Take Off Weight. He told me that he needs a minimum 20 man hours maintenance of cleaning and lubrication after a salt water landing. (He preferred land based operation obviously. It had wheels.)( he was a fussy private owner)
Performance of float planes is dismal compared to the original land plane due to the drag of the floats. I did a ride in a DeHavilland Canada Beaver on floats some years back. Cruised at about 80 knots with a little flap for best performance. Retracted the flaps for decent then flaps out again for landing.
A very long time ago I did a short flight in a Grumman Widgeon. A small twin engined sea plane. We started up and taxied down a ramp and as soon as we hit the water at slow speed visibility was lost in the spray from props. Only when we reached planing speed could the pilot see out the front. Fortunately he pointed into a gap in the yachts etc on Auckland harbour before opening the throttles.
One other intriguing thing is that high winged float planes often have a piece of rope dangling from the wing tip about 1 metre long. This is to enable the plane to be handled from a jetty or pontoon. They don't seem to care about this rope which just swings back at 45degrees in flight.
I had a career in Aviation regulation mainly engineering and mainly small aircraft. I saw many float planes and lovely sea planes come and be put into service. Almost all came to grief. Not through bad airmanship but through bad seamanship. Mostly they came to grief while moored. One in Broome where they have huge tides. (most places around here don't have the big tides) The pilot anchored the sea plane and didn't allow for tide rise. It was sunk. Another float plane where the pilot left it with inspection ports on top of the floats open to dry it out. The weather cam up windy and the waves filled the floats and sunk it. Then of course there was Sir Francis Chichester who wrecked his DeHavilland Moth on floats in Japan in a circumnavigation. I can't remember if it was on landing or on mooring.
To my knowledge we have one successful commercial operation of a Cessna 208 on floats. It services a pearl industry up north. The 208 is a single engined high wing Cessna with turbo prop engine and takes about 12 people. The old Beaver may also still be operating.
Just a few thoughts from down under. Mostly people here want fast planes due to long distances. olewill
All that has been said is correct. The regulatory requirements are huge. This is not a UK requirement but an international agreement known as the Chicago Convention when all countries came to an agreement on civil aviation regulations to permit international travel. The requirements for tiny personal and experimental planes are becoming a little more lenient in individual countries but are still very detailed. Basically because they don't want private nutters crashing their planes into population.
Anyway a float plane is a modified land plane with floats. These may have retractable wheels for landing. A set of amphibious floats might cost nearly as much as the plane. The Canadians like to exchange the floats in the winter for skis.
A sea plane is a plane with fuselage under body shaped like a speed boat. They usually have floats on wing tips. They may have retractable under carriage for landing or coming up a ramp from the water.
During second world war some impressive sea planes were made. The Catalina was one famous American type Grumman made a series and of course the English made the Sunderland and similar. Today I don't think there are any large sea planes made making the old ones valuable.
Generally a sea plane can land on rougher water while a float plane is really only for very flat lakes or bays.
The Catalina during 2ndWW operated a service from Perth to Ceylon. It took about 12 people on the flight known as the flight of the double sunrise. Taking about 28 hrs in one leg at about 120 knots. It was the only air link with UK and you only traveled on a "must fly " basis. The Catalina had a huge range for sea patrol work. (and was very noisy)
Some years back I met an American retired couple who were traveling the world in their Grumman sea plane. A twin engined mid size about 5 tonne Max Take Off Weight. He told me that he needs a minimum 20 man hours maintenance of cleaning and lubrication after a salt water landing. (He preferred land based operation obviously. It had wheels.)( he was a fussy private owner)
Performance of float planes is dismal compared to the original land plane due to the drag of the floats. I did a ride in a DeHavilland Canada Beaver on floats some years back. Cruised at about 80 knots with a little flap for best performance. Retracted the flaps for decent then flaps out again for landing.
A very long time ago I did a short flight in a Grumman Widgeon. A small twin engined sea plane. We started up and taxied down a ramp and as soon as we hit the water at slow speed visibility was lost in the spray from props. Only when we reached planing speed could the pilot see out the front. Fortunately he pointed into a gap in the yachts etc on Auckland harbour before opening the throttles.
One other intriguing thing is that high winged float planes often have a piece of rope dangling from the wing tip about 1 metre long. This is to enable the plane to be handled from a jetty or pontoon. They don't seem to care about this rope which just swings back at 45degrees in flight.
I had a career in Aviation regulation mainly engineering and mainly small aircraft. I saw many float planes and lovely sea planes come and be put into service. Almost all came to grief. Not through bad airmanship but through bad seamanship. Mostly they came to grief while moored. One in Broome where they have huge tides. (most places around here don't have the big tides) The pilot anchored the sea plane and didn't allow for tide rise. It was sunk. Another float plane where the pilot left it with inspection ports on top of the floats open to dry it out. The weather cam up windy and the waves filled the floats and sunk it. Then of course there was Sir Francis Chichester who wrecked his DeHavilland Moth on floats in Japan in a circumnavigation. I can't remember if it was on landing or on mooring.
To my knowledge we have one successful commercial operation of a Cessna 208 on floats. It services a pearl industry up north. The 208 is a single engined high wing Cessna with turbo prop engine and takes about 12 people. The old Beaver may also still be operating.
Just a few thoughts from down under. Mostly people here want fast planes due to long distances. olewill
alan_d
Well-Known Member
There was, and perhaps still is, a small floatplane drawn up on the shore at Lochearnhead, but I have never seen it go anywhere.
Floatplanes seem to be reasonably common in New Zealand, presumably for the same reasons as Canada and Alaska.
Floatplanes seem to be reasonably common in New Zealand, presumably for the same reasons as Canada and Alaska.
electrosys
Well-Known Member
I came across a really good site a while back, where a bloke had built a hovercraft with wings - this thing flew just a few feet off the ground and was very graceful in flight. I wouldn't mind having one of those to play with, but it certainly wasn't cheap.
If memory serves, he was targetting the rescue services, where recovery might be necessary over swamp-land or salt marshes, where gullies or other undulations would prejudice a standard air cushion.
If memory serves, he was targetting the rescue services, where recovery might be necessary over swamp-land or salt marshes, where gullies or other undulations would prejudice a standard air cushion.
Seajet
...
Electolysys,
that sounds like a ground effect Ekranoplan again; how does it dodge things like, err, anything in the way ?!
I did see a floatplane landing on a pond close by the A24 Worthing Road a few miles South of Southwater West Sussex once; I think it was some sort of project to train pilots for this, but sadly no sign recently.
Dancrane & others, Olewill will I'm sure be familiar with this, but do yourself a huge favour and get a copy of 'The Lonely Sea And The Sky' by Francis Chichester ( he became 'Sir' much later, unlike most recipients he earned it many times over ) - IMHO one of the best books ever written on any subject and should be mandatory reading in schools, about his flying around the world in a Gypsy Moth he converted to floats, mishaps which would have made any lesser man like me take up golf or knitting, then eventually deciding on sailing; and that was just when he was getting going !
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bljones
Well-Known Member
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
What...what the..?...and...why...? Is that a long-jumping RIB? Presumably the outboard gives it take-off speed, then it vaults a few feet and then...back in the drink? Fabulous fun I'm sure, specially in surf. But...that's mad!
Some great contributions here, thanks to all. I doubt I'll be flying much myself, but I've learned plenty, and maybe we'll see some entertaining experimentation.
How about... a hydrofoiling narrowboat? A ground-effect London taxi? For avoiding speedbumps. 
PS Thanks Andy, I'll check the Francis Chichester volume.
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Allan
Well-Known Member
A couple of years ago they had a float plane land in Cardiff bay. It was supposed to be a test flight for tourist flights which were going to start but didn't get off the ground (or water). I believe it was to be run by a company who do a similar thing in Scotland.
Allan
bljones
Well-Known Member
Nay nay, m'sieur Crane, it ees a full-fledged aeroplane... of a sort. has a propeller and all the vroomy bits and everything, and being a RIB is arguably better for taking off in rough water than a float plane, but payload is negligible.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
What...what the..?...and...why...? Is that a long-jumping RIB? Presumably the outboard gives it take-off speed, then it vaults a few feet and then...back in the drink? Fabulous fun I'm sure, specially in surf. But...that's mad!
Some great contributions here, thanks to all. I doubt I'll be flying much myself, but I've learned plenty, and maybe we'll see some entertaining experimentation.
Nope, perfectly flyable motorised hang-glider with a RIB as the payload. Don't know the performance but they're just as feasible as any other motorised hang-glider (i.e. light winds only unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing). Actually you'd need to be very careful with the lift/drag all the way up there in the wing until you hit the water - not one to get the flare wrong in. Think I'd want to stay in the air as much as possible.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Cheers Grumpy & Mr Jones. I like the RIB! And, is it free of the grim 'payload' of legislation that prevents chaps with a sense of fun from finding original routes to hospital?
bljones
Well-Known Member
At least on this side of the Atlantic, no license is needed. Point and shoot, as it were.
Seajet
...
Dan,
in a way I suppose; do not pass go, do not collect admiring glances from crumpet, go straight to A & E !
Avocet
Well-Known Member
Presumably, you'd be stuffed on Windermere because of the 10MPH speed limit?! I guess that while the idea sounds good, many harbours have speed limits that would preclude taking off in one and if you land outside the speed limted area, you'd have to be dead lucky with the sea conditions. I don't know what sort of wave height those things can safely take off and land in, but presumably it's not much?
Kylora
Well-Known Member
Same guy has a smaller one - this is it on Loch Lomond - it was a roughish day so he couldn't land near his house but landed in the shelter of the islands and taxied a long way.
Ash
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Fantastic stuff!
Clearly some kind of neat circumnavigation of the problems, man-made and natural, is needed...resulting in a vessel that can float in the water, hover above it, skim at high speed and low altitude, or take off altogether. A sort of hovercraft-eckranoplan-microlite.
And presumably it would revert to 'boat' status, to keep harbourmasters and officialdom in their places? Worth thinking about.
Clearly some kind of neat circumnavigation of the problems, man-made and natural, is needed...resulting in a vessel that can float in the water, hover above it, skim at high speed and low altitude, or take off altogether. A sort of hovercraft-eckranoplan-microlite.
And presumably it would revert to 'boat' status, to keep harbourmasters and officialdom in their places? Worth thinking about.
Seajet
...
Dan,
one of these with floats should do the trick; and if anyone like Bucklers Hard staff try tapping on the hatch at dawn for harbour dues, there 's the witty response via 2 x 30mm cannon...
one of these with floats should do the trick; and if anyone like Bucklers Hard staff try tapping on the hatch at dawn for harbour dues, there 's the witty response via 2 x 30mm cannon...
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
That truly is a thing of beauty.
And, if any RIB-riding parking attendant asks about mooring tolls, you reply "VTOL" and disappear, upward!
Oh Gawd, I bet I've mis-identified a quite different plane as a Harrier? Sorry.
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