dt4134
Well-Known Member
It wasn't forecast before they left, not even till an hour or two before it hit.
Sigma 36 vrs She 36
- Thread starter Phideaux
- Start date
It wasn't forecast before they left, not even till an hour or two before it hit.
doug748
Well-Known Member
You are a good man Seajet, I am sure of that, but your opening remark was a cracker:
"I know each boat in essence, but haven't actually sailed them"
If only some of our acerbic chums were so honest
dt4134 - I have a few details of the 79 Fastnet to hand:
23 boats were either sunk or abandoned.
1/58 finished in class V
6/58 finished in class IV - Lorelei did indeed finish third
6/64 finished in class III
23/53 finished in class II
36/56 finished in class I
In view of this it seems unlikely that any Sigma 33s finished, unless they were out of class. I don't have any details of individual designs.
Stuff from: The Fasnet Disaster and After - Bob Fisher.
"I know each boat in essence, but haven't actually sailed them"
If only some of our acerbic chums were so honest
dt4134 - I have a few details of the 79 Fastnet to hand:
23 boats were either sunk or abandoned.
1/58 finished in class V
6/58 finished in class IV - Lorelei did indeed finish third
6/64 finished in class III
23/53 finished in class II
36/56 finished in class I
In view of this it seems unlikely that any Sigma 33s finished, unless they were out of class. I don't have any details of individual designs.
Stuff from: The Fasnet Disaster and After - Bob Fisher.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
There was only one Sigma 33 around at the time of the '79 Fastnet and that was sailed in the race by David Thomas himself. Along with lots of boats of its size, it was in the area of the worst conditions and suffered three B1 (90°) knockdowns but wasn't rolled. It also had one window stove in and the washboards cracked, but after lying ahull for a while, continued towards the rock with all systems intact.
In fact it was only by listening to the BBC reports on the wireless, (and having a Dutch warship stop to check on them) that they realised other people were having a much worse time of it. In order to stop their families worrying, they put into Newlyn (IIRC) to phone their families and drop off a crew member that had a broken collarbone, before continuing to Plymouth. That's why they didn't class as a finisher.
On being returned to Marine Projects, this prototype was stripped down, examined and all necessary changes were made to the subsequent production boats; the windows were smaller, the washboards more substantial and the deck reinforced where there was evidence of stress cracking.
The Sigma 36 was introduced a few years after that and hence was a generation 'newer' than the S&S designed SHE 36. Although both were designed to be competitive under IOR, either was particularly extreme. Both have good reputations as sea boats, but it should be remembered that British Beagle had a redesigned keel and rudder by Hugh Welbourne that helps its lack of grip when over-pressed. But then neither is the SHE36's reputation unblemished - it was the boat that sunk in the Gulf Stream leaving Webb Chiles to swim for 18 hours (IIRC) to the beach in Florida!
In fact it was only by listening to the BBC reports on the wireless, (and having a Dutch warship stop to check on them) that they realised other people were having a much worse time of it. In order to stop their families worrying, they put into Newlyn (IIRC) to phone their families and drop off a crew member that had a broken collarbone, before continuing to Plymouth. That's why they didn't class as a finisher.
On being returned to Marine Projects, this prototype was stripped down, examined and all necessary changes were made to the subsequent production boats; the windows were smaller, the washboards more substantial and the deck reinforced where there was evidence of stress cracking.
The Sigma 36 was introduced a few years after that and hence was a generation 'newer' than the S&S designed SHE 36. Although both were designed to be competitive under IOR, either was particularly extreme. Both have good reputations as sea boats, but it should be remembered that British Beagle had a redesigned keel and rudder by Hugh Welbourne that helps its lack of grip when over-pressed. But then neither is the SHE36's reputation unblemished - it was the boat that sunk in the Gulf Stream leaving Webb Chiles to swim for 18 hours (IIRC) to the beach in Florida!
saltylegs
Well-Known Member
IIRC that sigma was cheescake the first sigma 33 (prototype) and owned/skippered by David Hopkins (already mentioned in this thread as the guru on sigs) David Thomas was also on board.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are a good man Seajet, I am sure of that, but your opening remark was a cracker:
"I know each boat in essence, but haven't actually sailed them"
If only some of our acerbic chums were so honest
Yes, that one was a cracker, but it does some up some (not all) of his contributions - "I know nothing about the subject but I am going to tell you anyway - and you have to believe me because....."
doris
Well-Known Member
Beagle still has the redesigned keel and rudder, plus a new more powerful stick. The keel was courtesy of some marina boys driving her into a sill and cracking the original. The mast was cos Marco, rather carelessly, threw the original over the side on his Ostar qualifier.This was several hundred miles S of Ireland, sloppy.
I have been told the the Webb Chiles incident was, allegedly, a suicide attempt and should not reflect on the She. I am sure someone will confirm or deny this.
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
Lorelei / Alain Catherineau
The earlier refererence to Lorelei prompts me to post this link to an article in Yachting monthly (for those of you who didn't see it at the time) about the experiences of Stuart Quarrie in the 79 fastnet, including the brilliant rescue of the crew of Griffin by Alain Catherineau and his crew on Lorelei.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/fastnet79/survivor
The She 36 most certainly is an extremely elegant, and sea kindly yacht. I really don't think one should read too much into the seaworthiness of the class based on the Webb Chiles incident.
The earlier refererence to Lorelei prompts me to post this link to an article in Yachting monthly (for those of you who didn't see it at the time) about the experiences of Stuart Quarrie in the 79 fastnet, including the brilliant rescue of the crew of Griffin by Alain Catherineau and his crew on Lorelei.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/fastnet79/survivor
The She 36 most certainly is an extremely elegant, and sea kindly yacht. I really don't think one should read too much into the seaworthiness of the class based on the Webb Chiles incident.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
I remember reading Webb Chiles's book many years ago and my remembrance is that he was trying to kill himself at the time the boat sank. The book starts with him saying the bows sank below the water and he stepped into the water - there was nothing about any attempts to save the boat from sinking, or why she was sinking. I was left to assume that he'd deliberately scuttled her.
After being in the water for a while he changed his mind about dying.....
30boat
N/A
If memory serves me right he wrote that the day before he had a glancing blow with a ship,the next day the boat went down a wave and didn't recover.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
That's interesting about Webb Chiles. I've never heard anything about him trying to commit suicide. I wonder why he then fought to stay afloat for so long once he was in the water. Change of heart?
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
"Without taking a breath, I lowered my head beneath the sea and swam down.
Only 10 or 15 feet beneath the surface I ran out of air. Instinct, what I call the animal, took over. The mind can say: ``I am in a hopeless situation. I don`t fear death, only the suffering along the way.`` But the animal always wants to live and my animal is strong.
It had kept me alive for five months in a damaged boat in the Southern Ocean during my first circumnavigation, bailing six tons of water every 24 hours. It had kept me alive for 25,000 miles in an open boat. It had kept me alive while drifting 300 miles in an inflatable in the South Pacific. Some people had said the open boat voyage expressed a death wish. They did not consider that my first circumnavigation -- 1975-76, during which I stopped only twice and became the first American to go alone around Cape Horn and set the world record for the fastest solo circumnavigation in a monohull -- was for me a baseline. I had sailed the open boat because I wanted to do something even more difficult and something which, incidentally, did not cost much money.
The panicked animal struggled back to the surface.
Gasping, sputtering, I deliberately slowed my legs and arms. A wave curled over my head. I coughed out water. I was getting tired of these waves. Either because they were lost in the oncoming dawn or because I was being carried further offshore, the lights were no longer visible. Calmly, quietly, dispassionately, I observed what I expected to be my last dawn.
I treaded water and floated. An hour or two passed. Perhaps more. I continued to be amazed at how easy it was to keep afloat. I had been swimming for at least five or six hours, and I was completely fresh. I suppose the animal was pumping out adrenaline or some other chemical, but I was relaxed.
I thought of the pioneer French aviator Saint-Exupery writing about his attempt to walk away from a crash in the Sahara. Dying is simple, a natural act, he had said, as he struggled not to die. He had survived the crash, only to die flying in the Second World War. I wondered what he had thought in his last seconds, if he had had time to think at all. Dying might be simple. Drowning might be a sailor`s death. But the animal wasn`t having any.
Only 10 or 15 feet beneath the surface I ran out of air. Instinct, what I call the animal, took over. The mind can say: ``I am in a hopeless situation. I don`t fear death, only the suffering along the way.`` But the animal always wants to live and my animal is strong.
It had kept me alive for five months in a damaged boat in the Southern Ocean during my first circumnavigation, bailing six tons of water every 24 hours. It had kept me alive for 25,000 miles in an open boat. It had kept me alive while drifting 300 miles in an inflatable in the South Pacific. Some people had said the open boat voyage expressed a death wish. They did not consider that my first circumnavigation -- 1975-76, during which I stopped only twice and became the first American to go alone around Cape Horn and set the world record for the fastest solo circumnavigation in a monohull -- was for me a baseline. I had sailed the open boat because I wanted to do something even more difficult and something which, incidentally, did not cost much money.
The panicked animal struggled back to the surface.
Gasping, sputtering, I deliberately slowed my legs and arms. A wave curled over my head. I coughed out water. I was getting tired of these waves. Either because they were lost in the oncoming dawn or because I was being carried further offshore, the lights were no longer visible. Calmly, quietly, dispassionately, I observed what I expected to be my last dawn.
I treaded water and floated. An hour or two passed. Perhaps more. I continued to be amazed at how easy it was to keep afloat. I had been swimming for at least five or six hours, and I was completely fresh. I suppose the animal was pumping out adrenaline or some other chemical, but I was relaxed.
I thought of the pioneer French aviator Saint-Exupery writing about his attempt to walk away from a crash in the Sahara. Dying is simple, a natural act, he had said, as he struggled not to die. He had survived the crash, only to die flying in the Second World War. I wondered what he had thought in his last seconds, if he had had time to think at all. Dying might be simple. Drowning might be a sailor`s death. But the animal wasn`t having any.
Seajet
...
Says more about you than me, sad Tranona.
I know the boats in question from a design and chat with friends / contacts standpoint,but haven't sailed on them myself; sorry if straightforward honesty doesn't compute for you.
I don't 'tell' anyone anything, merely recount what I've heard and when it's secondhand - from people I know and trust - I say so.
You should try it sometime.
Andy
jwilson
Well-Known Member
He has subsequently written that he sank "Resurgam" - http://www.inthepresentsea.com/the_actual_site/introduction.html - not that she sank. My reading of the book, though I no longer have it, was that he wanted to die, but couldn't.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should listen to what Quandray was saying.
Suggest also you reread threads on the subjects of twin rudders and in mast reefing for example and look at what you were "telling" people - even after those with far more knowledge and experience were saying exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say.
Seems that you are unaware of the way your various pronouncements come across, despite numerous people (including me) pointing out that often your opinions do not quite correspond with facts.
As I said - not always the case, but quite often and maybe you need to reflect on that.
BTW I have no direct knowledge of either boat, so have can't make any contribution to the debate. However in matters Sigma, think I would be more inclined to listen to what Quandray has to say than your secondhand observations of what your mates saw.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Not sure about that one. Once met an ex Bristol channel pilot who was in the race in a High Tension. He saw the weather coming and before it hit decided the best thing to do was to go into Penzance which is where he sat it out.
dt4134
Well-Known Member
Only going off what I read in Nick Ward's book. And as it wasn't my copy I don't have it to reference. But basically, IIRC, they got a brilliant sunset. After dark they heard a French forecast that mentioned F10, checked with Falmouth? coastguard which was still giving out a F8 forecast, but which was updated some time afterwards. Then they got the storm. I believe they were up with the front of their class and were too far out to get back. Other boats probably hadn't cleared Lands End.
Willing to be corrected of course as this is just memory from reading the book.
Boo2
Well-Known Member
A1Sailor
...
Was your friend a test pilot?
A man in a pub told me that a Sigma 36 is bigger than a Sigma 33.
Seajet
...
Tranona,
you are full of it, as is Quandary however spelled.
I haven't relayed any 'secondhand observations of what my mates saw' which shows your accuracy.
Bog off and stick to something you might know about, whatever that is; it certainly doesn't include cockpit engine wells.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
VO5ism
“When you stop expecting people to be perfect, you can like them for who they are.”
― Donald Miller, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years: What I Learned While Editing My Life
From WikiPedia
I just liked his quote and thought it was appropriate considering the tone this thread has taken.
“When you stop expecting people to be perfect, you can like them for who they are.”
― Donald Miller, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years: What I Learned While Editing My Life
From WikiPedia
I just liked his quote and thought it was appropriate considering the tone this thread has taken.