Retired in Crete
Well-Known Member
I have used this argument to say that if boaters need licences then all car drivers should wear life jackets! As they are too fond of saying "If it saves one life it will be worth it".
John
Should you need a boat license in the UK?
- Thread starter aBod
- Start date
I have used this argument to say that if boaters need licences then all car drivers should wear life jackets! As they are too fond of saying "If it saves one life it will be worth it".
John
trapezeartist
Well-Known Member
Like many previous responders, I feel that any suggestion of licencing or testing is a solution looking for a problem. How would you set the standard? ICC is pathetic; as long as you can tell the pointy end from the blunt end you can qualify. Yet even Day Skipper standard would be unnecessarily onerous in certain circumstance.
On the other hand, anyone who doesn't get suitable training before taking charge of a boat is an idiot. But it should be voluntary, so that each individual can get appropriate training for his needs.
In terms of casualties, walking is far more dangerous than sailing. Before the Sir Humphreys start on us, they should first introduce walking licences and a walking test.
On the other hand, anyone who doesn't get suitable training before taking charge of a boat is an idiot. But it should be voluntary, so that each individual can get appropriate training for his needs.
In terms of casualties, walking is far more dangerous than sailing. Before the Sir Humphreys start on us, they should first introduce walking licences and a walking test.
chartnavigator
Well-Known Member
Not in American spelling it's not. I expect the spelling checker was defaulted to 'Yankee speak'. Ah well, Windows is American too isn't it. Shame they can't spell proper ain't it.
As to the thread subject. It would be nice if there was a way to weed out the 'rich but dim' and also the 'poor, stupid and foolhardy', like the guy who sailed round and round the Isle of Sheppey thinking he was going from London to Portsmouth.
Trouble is, who is going to police it, who examines and decides, who pays for all this etc?
I say leave well enough alone. There are plenty of regulations already in force to make real stupidity expensive for the ones who needlessly require the rescue services. Perhaps fines for foolishly wasting the rescue services time would encourage more people to be qualified at least well enough to prevent them being a nuisance to others.
Why should the British taxpayer pay yet another bureaucracy to license, adj, (the correct English spelling), British taxpayers to be allowed to do something that has always been the right and privilege of this maritime nations every subject.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Your own organisation's statistics show that the number of life threatening incidents is very small, both in absolute terms and in relation to the level of activity. Not only that, the number is either static or declining despite an increase in activity. Even if you ignore the inbuilt bias in the data which seeks to report the maximum number of "lives saved" and analyse it to find the real underlying reason for the incidents, basic lack of skills does not appear as a significant cause. There is of course a difficulty with the data as it is based on the judgement of the person reporting it rather than an independent evaluation and it is always tempting to see situations as more dangerous than they really are - that is, without intervention the situation may well have resolved itself satisfactorily.
There is a danger in being close to the "problem" and only seeing the problem at a micro level rather than the overall picture - which is that sailing is very safe and there is no systematic evidence that there is a "problem" that can be solved by any form of licencing. It is very similar to the recent attempt to introduce drink boating controls. Try as they might, the proposers were unable to find any real evidence that drink was a causal factor in deaths in boating incidents, and the poor old minister (not that I feel sorry for him) looked a fool in parliament when he reported the findings of his investigations.
The pressure (if there is any) is coming from people that see controls as a "good thing" regardless of whether there is any need. Hopefully our government and the organisations responsible for leisure boating will be robust in their opposition to any controls.
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
Indeed, regulation means an Income
What better reason to have a compolsory Licence / License than that of INCOME!
NB The RNLI responding to a call out is not mandatory, just they like doing it! so they do it as often as they can!
Anyways, I understood that the RNLI respond to more Call Outs to swimmers etc in distress than Yachties and Mobo's, if so where does having a License / Licence end??
Adrian_
N/A
I think that you UK guys should do EVERYTHING YOU CAN and then some extra to prevent any kind of licence being introduced. In almost every country where this happened, higher and higher taxes followed. Not to mention the absurd regulations ment to keep afloat certain business, like the ones mentioned by Plomong for Spain.
Laura Nineham
Well-Known Member
It's unfortunate that I spelt licence wrong in the subject line of the email when it is correct in the story that I published on Yachting Monthly. I hoped everyone would focus on the story rather than the typo in the subject line of the YBW email but unfortunately I've been proved wrong! Sadly I can't correct the typo but I hope it doesn't distract anyone from reading on...
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
There is no need for a license given that you are already required by existing regulations to behave in a basicly sensible way...see below... An alternative approach would seem to be using existing regulations and prosecutions against people who get into trouble on account of their own basic stupidity...
Perhaps knowing that a shout will end you up in front of the beak may encourage people to be more sensible?
SOLAS V For Pleasure Craft
On 1 July 2002, some new regulations came into force, which directly affect pleasure craft users. These regulations are part of Chapter V of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, otherwise known as SOLAS V. Most of the SOLAS convention only applies to large commercial ships, but parts of Chapter V apply to small, privately owned pleasure craft. The following requirements apply to all craft, irrespective of size. If you are involved in a boating accident and it is subsequently shown that you have not applied the basic principles outlined in this document, you could be prosecuted.
VOYAGE PLANNING
Regulation V/34 ‘Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations’, is a new regulation. It concerns prior-planning for your boating trip, more commonly known as voyage or passage planning. Voyage planning is basically common sense. As a pleasure boat user, you should particularly take into account the following points when planning a boating trip:
• Weather: before you go boating, check the weather forecast and get regular updates if you are planning to be out for any length of time.
• Tides: check the tidal predictions for your trip and ensure that they fit with what you are planning to do
Limitations of the vessel: consider whether your boat is up to the proposed trip and that you have sufficient safety equipment and stores with you.
• Crew: take into account the experience and physical ability of your crew. Crews suffering from cold, tiredness and seasickness won’t be able to do their job properly and could even result in an overburdened skipper.
• Navigational dangers: make sure you are familiar with any navigational dangers you may encounter during your boating trip. This generally means checking an up to date chart and a current pilot book or almanac.
• Contingency plan: always have a contingency plan should anything go wrong. Before you go, consider bolt holes and places where you can take refuge should conditions deteriorate or if you suffer an incident or injury. Bear in mind that your GPS set is vulnerable and could fail at the most inconvenient time. It is sensible and good practice to make sure you are not over-reliant on your GPS set and that you can navigate yourself to safety without it should it fail you.
• Information ashore: make sure that someone ashore knows your plans and knows what to do should they become concerned for your well being. The Coastguard Voluntary Safety Identification Scheme (commonly known as CG66) is also free and easy to join. The scheme aims to help the Coastguard to help you quickly should you get into trouble while boating. It could save your life..
Perhaps knowing that a shout will end you up in front of the beak may encourage people to be more sensible?
SOLAS V For Pleasure Craft
On 1 July 2002, some new regulations came into force, which directly affect pleasure craft users. These regulations are part of Chapter V of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, otherwise known as SOLAS V. Most of the SOLAS convention only applies to large commercial ships, but parts of Chapter V apply to small, privately owned pleasure craft. The following requirements apply to all craft, irrespective of size. If you are involved in a boating accident and it is subsequently shown that you have not applied the basic principles outlined in this document, you could be prosecuted.
VOYAGE PLANNING
Regulation V/34 ‘Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations’, is a new regulation. It concerns prior-planning for your boating trip, more commonly known as voyage or passage planning. Voyage planning is basically common sense. As a pleasure boat user, you should particularly take into account the following points when planning a boating trip:
• Weather: before you go boating, check the weather forecast and get regular updates if you are planning to be out for any length of time.
• Tides: check the tidal predictions for your trip and ensure that they fit with what you are planning to do
Limitations of the vessel: consider whether your boat is up to the proposed trip and that you have sufficient safety equipment and stores with you.
• Crew: take into account the experience and physical ability of your crew. Crews suffering from cold, tiredness and seasickness won’t be able to do their job properly and could even result in an overburdened skipper.
• Navigational dangers: make sure you are familiar with any navigational dangers you may encounter during your boating trip. This generally means checking an up to date chart and a current pilot book or almanac.
• Contingency plan: always have a contingency plan should anything go wrong. Before you go, consider bolt holes and places where you can take refuge should conditions deteriorate or if you suffer an incident or injury. Bear in mind that your GPS set is vulnerable and could fail at the most inconvenient time. It is sensible and good practice to make sure you are not over-reliant on your GPS set and that you can navigate yourself to safety without it should it fail you.
• Information ashore: make sure that someone ashore knows your plans and knows what to do should they become concerned for your well being. The Coastguard Voluntary Safety Identification Scheme (commonly known as CG66) is also free and easy to join. The scheme aims to help the Coastguard to help you quickly should you get into trouble while boating. It could save your life..
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
puzzled by Laura N comments above!
having not seen her writings on this subject!
But generally, i'd say, that the RYA courses and certificates are but a small part of Seamanship and suitable for a 'starter' course in marine training for those who lack any basic experience on the water in any sort of boat!
The RYA courses certainly are no substitute for 'hands on' experience
robertj
Well-Known Member
robertj
Well-Known Member
I think this would be a fantastic idea.
First could be a governmental dept. that fomulates the initial courses say £250 a pop followed by a test £250 or more even, followed by a range certificates with a yearly expiry, then compulsory registration Of £250? Followed by yearly sea tax worked out on boat size or engine pollution figures. A yearly MOT which year on year can be increased and tightened to remove older boats (saftey in mind of course) from the dangers of the sea and ourselves, followed by fines for lapses of such acts/statutes.
anchoring finesfor exercising your right to anchor, fines for sailing in a manner to endager life, sailing without due care and attention, sailing whilst under the influence of drink, drunk in charge if an achored vessel, fines for leaving port when inadaquate advice taken of weather/wind/tide, overtaking in a restricted area, fine for being in a Ship Lane, grounding fine, or navigation light not working, failure to provide documents, failure to provide an adaquate passage plan, failure to adhere to the permitted sailing hours, failure to provide a adaquate lookout whilst temporarily using the head or a cuppa, failure to provide ground anchor tackle, failure to provide adaquate size of ground tackle, failure to provide safety equipment, failure to provide adaquate safety equipment, failure go maintain safety equipment, failure to ...................................
Fantastic idea another way of fleecing the flock!!
First could be a governmental dept. that fomulates the initial courses say £250 a pop followed by a test £250 or more even, followed by a range certificates with a yearly expiry, then compulsory registration Of £250? Followed by yearly sea tax worked out on boat size or engine pollution figures. A yearly MOT which year on year can be increased and tightened to remove older boats (saftey in mind of course) from the dangers of the sea and ourselves, followed by fines for lapses of such acts/statutes.
anchoring finesfor exercising your right to anchor, fines for sailing in a manner to endager life, sailing without due care and attention, sailing whilst under the influence of drink, drunk in charge if an achored vessel, fines for leaving port when inadaquate advice taken of weather/wind/tide, overtaking in a restricted area, fine for being in a Ship Lane, grounding fine, or navigation light not working, failure to provide documents, failure to provide an adaquate passage plan, failure to adhere to the permitted sailing hours, failure to provide a adaquate lookout whilst temporarily using the head or a cuppa, failure to provide ground anchor tackle, failure to provide adaquate size of ground tackle, failure to provide safety equipment, failure to provide adaquate safety equipment, failure go maintain safety equipment, failure to ...................................
Fantastic idea another way of fleecing the flock!!
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing a licence with a test and certificate of competency. I certainly don't want a licence to just exercise my right of navigation - that is simply a boat tax by any other name (unless it was free, in which what is the point of it, beyond a means of gathering information that is not needed). I would agree with a very basic test of competency (very basic as I also support the right of anyone to eliminate themselves from the gene pool by their innate inability to survive their own stupidity) - but I don't believe that any organisation (including the RYA or RNLI) is capable of implementing, administering or operating such a compulsory test regime effectively. Even if, by some miraculous freak of human nature, it didn't quickly become a bureaucratic nightmare and a cash cow it would still have an insignificant effect on safety at sea.
In summary - for God's sake, please don't even talk about it...
In summary - for God's sake, please don't even talk about it...
Blue5
Well-Known Member
I expect the cost of any licence will = the reduction in insurance premiums due to our reduced risk as "licenced sailors"epervier
Well-Known Member
Whilst I'm assuming you've written this with a bit of tongue in cheek, you happen to have in your list a number of true prosecutable offences that are already enforced, but do understand the point you're making.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Dont even joke about this one. It is already on the statute books in embryo, with the MMO 'Marine Plan'
The MCAA 2009 effectively gave our political masters full control of EVERYTHING that happens on the water. Studlands anchoring pales into insignificance alongside the breathtaking potential of this bit of legislation.
It set up the MMO to control Britains seas, and they have set to work to do just that. The marine plan will, they say affect every body who uses the water, "right through to kitesurfers"
"They (the MMO) will guide, inform and educate the
public, business and voluntary sectors in their actions and attitudes,"
( Section 2 .2 Draft statutory guidance
to the
Marine Management Organisation
on its contribution to the achievement
of sustainable development
Presented to Parliament pursuant to section 2(6)
of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009.,)
Now take a read through this: http://www.marinemanagement.org.uk/licensing/marine.htm
and tell me whether having millions of unlicensed, unrecorded, unregulated leisure boats swanning around Uk waters is consistent with such a plan?
The writing is on the wall. The government has decided we the public need to be informed and educated. That can mean only one thing.
awol
Well-Known Member
Laura
I would have sworn the article I read on my phone after receiving the email had the "s" spelling as well but on re-reading today I fear I owe you an apology. The bastardisation of the english language may be a greater threat to our civilisation than one publicity seeking MEP and so I attacked what I saw as the greater evil. That it was misdirected, I seek your forgiveness.
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
We need to fight this but what is the RYA doing about this? They should be screaming from the rooftops...
Government plans to charge you for fishing in the sea Under new proposals being unveiled it will son be a criminal offence for anyone to cast a fishing line from a boat, beach or pier. Hefty fines will be levied on anyone without a license
That should get a lot of attention, yet I have not heard anything from them on the TV radio..
oldharry
Well-Known Member
As a matter of fact, RYA are very much on the ball on current legislative developements. It was they who spotted and stopped the Osborne Bay English Heritage private Conservation Zone while the rest of us were still digesting our christmas dinners, for example.
Their difficulty is, that they have so much of this sort of material going through, none of us would ever bother to read through it.
That and they dont waste our money on PR to keep members informed!
Their difficulty is, that they have so much of this sort of material going through, none of us would ever bother to read through it.
That and they dont waste our money on PR to keep members informed!
Sandyman
Well-Known Member
Hefty fines !!! Criminal offense !!! Notice the threats & intimidation............again.
Think about why they now automatically make such threats & why !!
Think about why they now automatically make such threats & why !!
Bobc
Well-Known Member
The big problem here stems from the fact that most Governments are made-up of lawyers. All they know how to do is to make laws, and if they've got nothing better to do, they'll dream up another law just to keep them busy and in a job.
IMHO the easiest solution to this is to bin Europe for a start, and then get rid of all the lawyers in Government and replace them with a range of people from various walks of life who actually get it. Then you just have a bunch of lawyers as "Legal Council" to advise.
...and then I woke up.
IMHO the easiest solution to this is to bin Europe for a start, and then get rid of all the lawyers in Government and replace them with a range of people from various walks of life who actually get it. Then you just have a bunch of lawyers as "Legal Council" to advise.
...and then I woke up.