Should The Government Help Boaters?

[timbartlett]

So by allowing a 60/40 split the gov't has helped to keep boats in the UK, thus supporting the marine industry. The idea that it's to avoid boaters travelling abroad to fill up is, err..... tosh (in my opinion, with all that respect and reverence stuff).

Did I suggest that people crossed the channel just to fill up? Funny, I don't remember.

The point is that expensive fuel in the UK is a disincentive to keeping a boat here, and a disincentive to refuelling here.

So some people will move their boats abroad (much easier and more sensible than moving your car abroad!) while others will make sure they fill up abroad as much as possible and fill up in the UK as little as possible. Meanwhile, the opposite would also happen: visitors would be less inclined to fill up in the UK if they could avoid it, and less likely to consider keeping their boats here.

All these changes would affect high-volume users more than low-volume users, so they would lead to reduced fuel sales in the UK. The fact that this might also lead to more people running out of fuel was another argument that was put to HMRC.

I'm afraid the idea that jacking up the price of UK diesel to prices that would have been way above EU norms would have made no difference to users habits is the "Tosh". Even the officials at HMRC had the commonsense to grasp that point -- I am astonished that boat-owners find it so difficult to understand.

Yes, the actual amounts concerned are (in government terms) trivial... but governments love to concern themselves with trivial things.

 

[henryf]

Hard fact time, rather than pie in the sky theorising.

This August we spent our family holiday on our boat. We set off from Portsmouth and had a choice of where to go. We stayed in the UK and headed West getting as far as Plymouth before returning. We could just as easily have gone over to the Channel Islands. Had the fuel price differential been higher we probably would have done. We have tank capacity to visit France from Jersey, do a bit of touring around then come back to Jersey to re-fuel. Upon our return to the Uk we would have brought back reserve fuel for future use.

Were we based in Poole or Weymouth the sums would have been even more favourable.

So the UK fuel solution definitely kept us and our spending money this side of the channel.

Henry

 

[Nick_H]

Did I suggest that people crossed the channel just to fill up?

Well myself and three others thought you suggested it when you wrote "the only reason it gets away with existing rates of taxation on road fuel is because there is a physical barrier between the UK and mainland Europe, where fuel tax is less excessive. For boats, the channel is a highway, not a barrier."

 

[rbcoomer]

Well myself and three others thought you suggested it when you wrote "the only reason it gets away with existing rates of taxation on road fuel is because there is a physical barrier between the UK and mainland Europe, where fuel tax is less excessive. For boats, the channel is a highway, not a barrier."

I confess I was one that read(misread?) it that way. Whilst it's true that the ocean is a great highway, I can't see many using it to save on fuel - unless of course the prices in France were closer to Venezuelan prices... (wishful thinking! )

 

[Nick_H]

Hard fact time, rather than pie in the sky theorising.

This August we spent our family holiday on our boat. We set off from Portsmouth and had a choice of where to go. We stayed in the UK and headed West getting as far as Plymouth before returning. We could just as easily have gone over to the Channel Islands. Had the fuel price differential been higher we probably would have done. We have tank capacity to visit France from Jersey, do a bit of touring around then come back to Jersey to re-fuel. Upon our return to the Uk we would have brought back reserve fuel for future use.

Were we based in Poole or Weymouth the sums would have been even more favourable.

So the UK fuel solution definitely kept us and our spending money this side of the channel.

Henry

But diesel IS loads cheaper in the Channel Islands, and you still chose not to go, so I don't get your point. If fuel was more expensive here, then of course some people would change some of their plans, and less fuel would be purchased, but it wouldn't be nearly enough to offset the extra 40% tax the revenue would receive on the fuel that was bought here.

If most boat owners crossed the channel regularly, and therefore had the choice of where to buy diesel, i'd maybe agree, but in reality a tiny percentage do so, and even most of them only go once a year. For most boaters the Channel isn't a highway, it's a big scary expanse of sea with no land in sight, kamikazee ships, freak waves and pea soup fog waiting to swallow you up.

 

[Assassin]

Timbartlett:

I have no spectacles at all, let alone rose tinted ones, it was merely an example to open the debate with.

As for Nick H, a great post, it is only the Government who can get around the issues of land use and allow the construction of more marinas, particularly those equalling the worlds best, so yes intervention would be beneficial.

 

[MrB]

I think one reason why the British government doesn't build loads of new marinas around the coast is because most of it is protected in one way or another.(national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, places of natural beauty etc.) Getting planning permission on coastal land is a nightmare. Oh, and unlike our Mediterranean friends, our weather is s**t lol

 

[oldgit]

Oh, and unlike our Mediterranean friends, our weather is s**t lol

Like this you mean

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/One_killed,_many_boats_damaged_in_storms_on_Spanish_island_of_Majorca

 

[MrB]

Oh, and unlike our Mediterranean friends, our weather is s**t lol

Like this you mean

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/One_killed,_many_boats_damaged_in_storms_on_Spanish_island_of_Majorca

So I'm a newbie, cut me some slack...lol. The latter part of my post was "tongue in cheek", honest

 

[henryf]

But diesel IS loads cheaper in the Channel Islands, and you still chose not to go, so I don't get your point. If fuel was more expensive here, then of course some people would change some of their plans, and less fuel would be purchased, but it wouldn't be nearly enough to offset the extra 40% tax the revenue would receive on the fuel that was bought here.

If most boat owners crossed the channel regularly, and therefore had the choice of where to buy diesel, i'd maybe agree, but in reality a tiny percentage do so, and even most of them only go once a year. For most boaters the Channel isn't a highway, it's a big scary expanse of sea with no land in sight, kamikazee ships, freak waves and pea soup fog waiting to swallow you up.

It's cheaper but the gap isn't as large as it might be. Without the 60/40 dispensation the gap probably would have been enough to tempt us to make the crossing. The run from Weymouth to Torquay isn't that much further that to the channel islands. As it is we stayed on the mainland, had a wonderful time and spent our money within English tax jurisdiction.

Henry

 

[lovezoo]

Oh, and unlike our Mediterranean friends, our weather is s**t lol

Like this you mean

No, he means weather like this:

Not bad for the end of September.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

At current fx rates we pay less than most euro countries, but my point was more that boaters pay less for their fuel than motorists, and this was allowed by the government specifically to help the marine industry, and UK boatbuilders in particular, because we mostly build diesel guzzling mobos.

The biggest help HMG has given the UK boating industry by far has been the deliberate devaluation of Sterling over the last 3yrs which has given all of our exporting companies an instant competitive advantage (of course that has been at the cost of rampant inflation and erosion of pensions/savings). What will happen to the British boatbuilding industry when the Euro/Dollar goes tits up and/or Italy leaves the Euro and their boat builders enjoy the advantage of a weak Lira again is anybody's guess

 

[Seahope]

The biggest help HMG has given the UK boating industry by far has been the deliberate devaluation of Sterling over the last 3yrs which has given all of our exporting companies an instant competitive advantage (of course that has been at the cost of rampant inflation and erosion of pensions/savings). What will happen to the British boatbuilding industry when the Euro/Dollar goes tits up and/or Italy leaves the Euro and their boat builders enjoy the advantage of a weak Lira again is anybody's guess

Mike, the falling exchange rate also means that parts imported by manufacturers costs more. Since most of our successful manufacturing companies must have minimised labour to remain competitive I am guessing that the depreciation in Sterling has not helped as much as people expected. It has certainly increased the cost of living here in the UK!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, the falling exchange rate also means that parts imported by manufacturers costs more. Since most of our successful manufacturing companies must have minimised labour to remain competitive I am guessing that the depreciation in Sterling has not helped as much as people expected. It has certainly increased the cost of living here in the UK!

True but that depends on whether the importer of those parts is able to pass on that Sterling depreciation in higher prices to the boat builder. With the recession, many importers have been unable to raise their prices sufficiently to cover Sterling's depreciation (dont I know it!). Yes all manufacturers reduce the labour element in their products wherever possible but there are other Sterling denominated elements of the price to consider such as office overheads, selling and marketing costs and of course, profit.
It would be interesting to know what proportion of a typical grp mobo is accounted for by imported components and materials though

 

[Assassin]

Mr B:

Much of the coastline is protected and this does not preclude new marinas being built, in fact it could be seen as an opportunity to show how boaters and the environment could work if properly managed.

Many people slated 4X4's and were under many misconceptions based on myths and outright lies perpetuated by many groups, many environmental, and Governments. When these myths were dispelled and the truth emerged people accepted the truth and the fact they were being duped.
This led to many organisations banning 4X4's from their land due to policies formulated from these myths and lies, the Forestry Commission being one of many. Fortunately the Forestry Commission took a bold step and allowed, under a management group, access to many hectares of their land for 4X4 users and off roaders and found in real terms thet the use of such land lessened the environmental impact. This was initially an experiment, and is still ongoing.

Why could similar principles be adopted and more marinas built, particularly around the south coast where there is a shortage, it would bring competition and reduce prices, and would attract visitors from abroad.

 

[OAF]

Why could similar principles be adopted and more marinas built, particularly around the south coast where there is a shortage, it would bring competition and reduce prices, and would attract visitors from abroad.

Is there shortage? all of the marinas that I visit are complaining about empty berths, my friends who own a marina in the South has commented that he his has not been full for the last couple of years, If anything like the inland system at the moment there are too many half empty marinas.

I don't think we need new marinas and certainly not subsidised or operated by the government!

 

[tico]

Don't know about that!
There is a new marina (inland canal) being dug as we speak near where I live.
approx 300 berths.... don't know how they will fill it.

 

[henryf]

I used to live on the canal and built a 70 foot boat from scratch so have something of a passing interest in the subject. I bought "Canal Boat" the other day and was surprised to see how many new marinas were being advertised.

I don't necessarily see this and empty berths as being a problem for several reasons.

For a long time one the south coast marina space was at a premium with waiting lists in operation. This drove prices up and discouraged new boaters. Having spare capacity means we should see a gradual reduction in berthing fees, probably the single largest expense most boaters face.

There is certainly scope for price reductions. Unlike a house the pile in the ground per 2 boats and bit of floating pontoon is relatively cheap compared to the rental income. You have to buy the land of course but the hardware costs aren't huge in relative terms.

Don't forget that building new capacity has a long lead time associated with it and so a bank of capacity is beneficial.

Not only does spare capacity encourage new boaters it also encourages existing boaters to venture further afield knowing there will be no "full up" issues.

Spare capacity allows for re-structuring to take the ever larger boats which are being bought.

Ultimately so long as the berth's owners have done their sums to accommodate some empty spaces we are fine. Boat moorings tend to attract pockets of local growth in the economy where ever they are built, is that a bad thing?

Henry

 

[oldgit]

"Many people slated 4X4's and were under many misconceptions based on myths and outright lies perpetuated by many groups"


Just out of interest .... exactly what myths, misconceptions and outright lies were those then ?

 

[Nick_H]

I used to live on the canal and built a 70 foot boat from scratch so have something of a passing interest in the subject. I bought "Canal Boat" the other day and was surprised to see how many new marinas were being advertised.

I don't necessarily see this and empty berths as being a problem for several reasons.

For a long time one the south coast marina space was at a premium with waiting lists in operation. This drove prices up and discouraged new boaters. Having spare capacity means we should see a gradual reduction in berthing fees, probably the single largest expense most boaters face.

There is certainly scope for price reductions. Unlike a house the pile in the ground per 2 boats and bit of floating pontoon is relatively cheap compared to the rental income. You have to buy the land of course but the hardware costs aren't huge in relative terms.

Don't forget that building new capacity has a long lead time associated with it and so a bank of capacity is beneficial.

Not only does spare capacity encourage new boaters it also encourages existing boaters to venture further afield knowing there will be no "full up" issues.

Spare capacity allows for re-structuring to take the ever larger boats which are being bought.

Ultimately so long as the berth's owners have done their sums to accommodate some empty spaces we are fine. Boat moorings tend to attract pockets of local growth in the economy where ever they are built, is that a bad thing?

Henry

Agree all that. There isn't spare capacity, it's just that marina prices are too high relative to demand, because they haven't lowered their prices following the recession and diesel price increase. There are loads of people that would love to berth in a marina if prices were lower. Obviously the marinas have decided its better to keep their high charges and have some berths empty, than reduce their charges and fill them. They get away with this because its an imperfect market, there's a huge restriction on supply due to the non-availability of suitable sites and overwhelming planning restrictions

More marinas would mean lower prices, so more people would then berth in them, so more people would buy boats, which would support the marine industry