Should I use my staysail on cutter rig when going upwind?

tudorsailor

tudorsailor

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I do not want to start a thread on the pros & cons of cutter rig. I have a cutter rig. I have been told that when going close to the wind that it is better not to use the staysail and to sail on the Yankee headsail (& main) only. However, when I sail with the yankee and staysail I seem to go faster than with yankee alone.

Any thoughts?

Tudorsailor
 
I to have a cutter rig and have read been told the same, however in practice the boat sails quicker with the staysail set and trimmed relative to main and yankee. So I sail for boat speed not a hypothesiss.
 
The only observation I would make is: when using staysail, genoa and main. I have found the genny looses some of it's shape low down, this may not be the case with a yankee which I assume is cut higher. I think the answer is to go sailing, record how the trim and speed are, drop the staysail and see if you slow down or speed up.

SD
 
I have a cutter rig..

When sailing with wind forward of the beam, including close to the wind - I find the boat sails much better with the staysail out - as I understand it, the two sails create a "slot" and more lift..

However, I have a high cut yankee on the outer forestay- I gather from the a following article that if you have fuller genoa, then close to the wind may not be so good..

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat-articles/19463-sailing-cutter-rig.html

and also
(from "boatdesign.net)

"One of the problems with modern "cutters", e.g. Island Packets, is that they are set up with a staysail set up inside a masthead genoa. In that case the staysail really just adds drag. The (upper and outer) jib needs a high cut foot in order to allow the (inner and lower) staysail to do some work"
he point about the air flowing thru the foretriangle is that all the business about leading edge and slot effect and whatever is all detail. The big picture is Newton's law, and the exchange of momentum as air is diverted back. Given that, it's hard to see how any sail set on the forestay could be more efficient than a good genoa.

The most popular cruising rig nowadays is a masthead sloop with a sizeable (150%) genoa on a furler. This is very limiting when the wind is too strong for the whole genoa. A well thought out cutter rig gives some options for reducing sail."

(for a very long and complex discussion see:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-5596.html)
 
Carol, is "wild bird" red? if so I may have gotten some good pics of you carrying the Spinny into the Catterwater a couple of weeks ago...


Sept1s.jpg
 
Alas -- no not me! (or rather Wild Bird!)

She's white....

I'd love a spinny.. sailed down to Fowey last Saturday with a cruising chute and ended up way out heading towards Falmouth when most everyone with a spinny could go virtually direct.

Hmmm.. another purchase?
 
Problem with a spinny, is you need a cast of thousands!


I'll keep my eyes open next summer!

If we havn't gone to Scotland/ been repossesed. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
On most cutter rigged yachts you mostly get better VMG to windward without the staysail. In light winds the extra speed of having it set may outweigh the fact that you have to bear away slightly to get all three sails to fill properly.

All boats are different, as are all sails, so put a waypoint dead to windward into a GPS and see what VMGs you actually get under both options - with and without.
 
Stauysail and yankee and main upwind is the way to go, forms a slot, which improves airflow an thus lift (thrust) does on my boat anyway.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Carol, is "wild bird" red? if so I may have gotten some good pics of you carrying the Spinny into the Catterwater a couple of weeks ago...


Sept1s.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

no, this is lovely Wild Bird with her Super Dooper crew
DSC_0076-1.jpg
 
We use both upwind on our IP too, but not in light winds, where drag is more of an issue. The genoa on an IP is cut a bit high, sort of part way to a yankee rather than a true deck-sweeper type, so I'm not sure what the boatdesign.net guy was going on about in Carol's quote.

The big advantage is going upwind in heavy winds, just using the main and staysail, although this is drifting off topic. We found we can sail closer to the wind because of the closer sheeting angle (good for motor sailing too) although the boat is not as fast - haven't analysed this all fully yet. Staysail is brill for short tacking in such conditions too, especially as it's self-tacking - we negotiated narrow channels between islands off Maine several times like this and it was a complete doddle.
 
I think the answer to this must lie in "how does it work for you, at various wind angles and condition?"

For me, even with a high-cut Genoa (much like a yankee), when very close to the wind, the staysail doesn't really help at all.

Sailing rather freer, it can add 0.5 kt, or a bit more. As said elsewhere, it is an excellent heavy-weather sail, allowing the genoa (which would otherwise be rolled far too small, and be too far forwards to be working well or efficiently) to be tucked away.
 
totally agree with the don,t use the staysail going windwards except that it is useful to have it out if you are tacking alot.saves friction on the genoa.
 
I sailed several different cutter-headed ketches a lot in the past and most of them sailed better to windward with the stays'l and a yankee. You need to trim correctly, start at the foremost sail and work your way back. I think however a number of posters here are talking about cutters rigged with genoas as the headsail, in which case you could certainly be better without the stays'l, on the wind. As others have said, try it and see.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The most popular cruising rig nowadays is a masthead sloop with a sizeable (150%) genoa on a furler. This is very limiting when the wind is too strong for the whole genoa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree with that. The modern trend has been to bigger mains and smaller, often no more than 105-115 per cent, genoas or even 100 per cent self-tacking jibs. The days of the masthead 150 per cent genoa went out with the IOR
 
The question on its own cannot be answered simply by a yes or no, as there are many factors to consider. What sort of keel does the boat have, what is the hull shape of the boat, what sort of rudder does it have, what sort of weight, position of mast, what cut are the yankee and staysail, do you have a furling mainsail or not, and so on.
Basically, it will very much depend per type of yacht what would be the best solution and therefore there is not one answer. If you are happier and faster with both, that's your answer.
Cheers! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
No definitive answer , but solid theoretical stuff has been written for SAIL magazine by Arvel Gentry (Boeing Aerodynamicist, sailor and consultant to US Americas cup!) that suggests unless the sails are all set so one helps the next, the staysail just sits looking pretty in an airflow but doesn't contribute.

Interesting reading, find it with Google or buy "Best of Sail Trim" and read the series.

Fascinating, but you cant lightly dismiss those who have cutters and say otherwise. That's the fascination of sail though isn't it!
 
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