Should I use a broker to BUY my boat ?

[zambant]

Normally use the RYA forms and they have served me well - but I'm about to buy a £70,000 boat privately. Now I can do some of the donkey work myself but is it worth my while finding a broker to do the sale for me in order that I can ensure all the paperwork is in order?
Thanks
John

 

[Bosun Higgs]

peperwork - no. You can do anything necessary with paperwork yourself and tbh there isnt that much to do. But it might well be a good idea to use a broker to handle the money side.

 

[jonic]

peperwork - no. You can do anything necessary with paperwork yourself and tbh there isnt that much to do. But it might well be a good idea to use a broker to handle the money side.

The thing is I see incorrect (or misunderstood) paperwork on a very regular basis. At a rough guess I would say one in three.

PM me with the details and I'll see if I can help.

 

[maby]

peperwork - no. You can do anything necessary with paperwork yourself and tbh there isnt that much to do. But it might well be a good idea to use a broker to handle the money side.

I'll second that - the paperwork is pretty simple, but you really need a trusted third party to hold the money till the transaction is complete - could be a broker, but I would probably prefer a solicitor - there have been a few cases of brokers going bust and their escrow accounts not being properly isolated.

 

[rjcoles]

I will act as Jonic's second!

I find that about 25% of the paperwork that I am presented with leave something to be desired and most of this has been "home" completed.

I, like most other ABYA brokers, will act for private buyers /sellers. We will check providence etc and produce contracts and the Bills of Sale to the same professional standard. We also offer the use our Client Deposit account for the transaction. In order to do this we have to make a small charge for our time and to cover the very expensive Professional Indemnity Insurance that all ABYA brokers have to have for your safety.

 

[jonic]

I will act as Jonic's second!

I find that about 25% of the paperwork that I am presented with leave something to be desired and most of this has been "home" completed.

I, like most other ABYA brokers, will act for private buyers /sellers. We will check providence etc and produce contracts and the Bills of Sale to the same professional standard. We also offer the use our Client Deposit account for the transaction. In order to do this we have to make a small charge for our time and to cover the very expensive Professional Indemnity Insurance that all ABYA brokers have to have for your safety.

My personal favorite is where the paragraph on the Bill of Sale declaring the owner has the power to transfer is mistakenly entirely crossed out.

I have had Bills of Sale where the owner has put in 32/64ths and the buyer thinks he owns it, and then we find there was a (now divorced) wife who never signed, VAT receipts that were for deposits or for items of equipment and not evidence of the VAT payment on the boat and "originals" that turned out to be copies because the finance house, that was never mentioned, was holding the real documents!

I have asked for builders certificates that turned out to be Gerrman gas safety certificates, RCD certificates that were for another boat entirely and registration papers that were radio licenses!

The times I have asked for the Bill of Sale and been handed a sale and purchase contract or a brokers receipt or a receipt for fitted extras probably runs into, thousands....well it feels like it

 

[jonic]

Looks like we wont be seeing you at Beaulieu tomorrow after all Rjcoles

 

[minkysailing]

Zambant,

If you have not already engaged the services of a Marine Surveyors, may I suggest that you consider doing so. A thorough surveyor should check all documentation held by the vendor or broker acting for the vendor as part of a Pre-Purchase Survey.

 

[jonic]

I'll second that - the paperwork is pretty simple, but you really need a trusted third party to hold the money till the transaction is complete - could be a broker, but I would probably prefer a solicitor - there have been a few cases of brokers going bust and their escrow accounts not being properly isolated.

List the number of brokers where that has occurred.

Then list the number of solicitors.

There is absolutely no comparison.

You can easily check if the account is a proper client account, mine is the same as a solicitors or accountants, by asking to see the agreement from the bank. Note the account number and only pay any money into that account. Check the brokers PI insurance too. All brokers who are ABYA members MUST have a properly set up client account that is entirely separate to their business, and professionally indemnity insurance.

Ask to see both documents. They will gladly show you.


This issue is often confused with dealers of new boats taking stage payments.

But its all been flogged to death on here so lets not go there again

 

[jonic]

Zambant,

If you have not already engaged the services of a Marine Surveyors, may I suggest that you consider doing so. A thorough surveyor should check all documentation held by the vendor or broker acting for the vendor as part of a Pre-Purchase Survey.

Minky

Having been on the other side of some of your surveys, you may be surprised to know you are the exception to the rule. Certainly nowadays.

But more to the point RJ and Minky Its Saturday night what are we all doing here on YBW?

How bl$£^y sad is that

 

[rjcoles]

We are bored!!!
We had planned to spend the day sorting out all my boats old tat and trying to stuff a quart into a pint sized car ready for BBJ. Also getting into a high state of excitement about buying your old tat tomorrow, but its now a dream.
So instead of getting to bed early in order to catch a 6 am ferry tomorrow I can sit up with a drop of rum as a nightcap and pound the keyboard.

Cheers

 

[jonic]

We are bored!!!
We had planned to spend the day sorting out all my boats old tat and trying to stuff a quart into a pint sized car ready for BBJ. Also getting into a high state of excitement about buying your old tat tomorrow, but its now a dream.
So instead of getting to bed early in order to catch a 6 am ferry tomorrow I can sit up with a drop of rum as a nightcap and pound the keyboard.

Cheers

Cheers too

You'll probably like this then

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Normally use the RYA forms and they have served me well - but I'm about to buy a £70,000 boat privately. Now I can do some of the donkey work myself but is it worth my while finding a broker to do the sale for me in order that I can ensure all the paperwork is in order?
Thanks
John

I'd say exactly the opposite to the Bosun. Use a Jonic or another good and reliable broker to check the paperwork. That's an esoteric skillset and well worth paying for his experience and knowledge. The money side should be a lot more straightforward though as you're paying the Broker directly for his services and he's acting for you, not the vendor. Once Jonic or A.N.Other has done the paperwork and confirmed all is in order he should be able to prepare a simple document that transfers title to you on receipt of much wonga. Alternatively he may say there's a hitch because of whatever of course, but that's the whole point of getting him to check. The actual transfer bears little risk as long as the boat is somewhere accessible to you. As the title transfers subject to payment of x, if you can show you have given him x the boat is yours - if you can't show that it's still his. The key point is to make sure you clearly state where the funds are to be paid to, rather than just the name of a person who should be paid. That way evidence of the money going into that account is sufficient to prove title. The payment of Jonic (or other broker) for his services should be agreed between the two of you.

Effectively what you've done is exactly the way I'd love to see yacht sales conducted which is as a direct transaction between vendor and purchaser, with a "broker" paid independently by the party he's acting for.

 

[Jim@sea]

Dont the RYA recommend various firms of Solicitors who would deal with boating problems. I would use one of them.

 

[jonic]

Dont the RYA recommend various firms of Solicitors who would deal with boating problems. I would use one of them.

Why?

ABYA brokers are insured and are trained to deal with it every day.

Put Marine and Lawyer in the same sentence and think big bills.

I wouldn't be engaging Marine Lawyers until things go wrong and you want litigation.

 

[Lakesailor]

I will act as Jonic's second!

I find that about 25% of the paperwork that I am presented with leave something to be desired and most of this has been "home" completed.

I, like most other ABYA brokers, will act for private buyers /sellers. We will check providence etc

Would you also check the provenance?

 

[jonic]

Would you also check the provenance?

Boat buying can be a religious experience

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Dont the RYA recommend various firms of Solicitors who would deal with boating problems. I would use one of them.

Just about every argument I've seen against Brokers (apart from the fact that the really bad ones are lazy gits who can't even be bothered to get off their backsides to check the boat actually exists sometimes, never mind the stated condition) centres around the fact that you give all your money to Broker as he is acting as agent for the vendor. If the Broker does decide to do a runner with your money or lose it amongst his own debts you're in a dodgy position. This is incredibly rare (if it ever has actually happened at all) but, as a point of principle, I wouldn't give the money to someone who doesn't have title to transfer without an awful lot of protection. Why take even a slight risk when you don't have to? The way you're doing it it's much more like a car purchase. You have money, he has the car. You give him the money, get a receipt, and drive away in the car. If you can't drive away in the car you don't give him the money. The tricky bit is making sure that the car is actually his to sell, has no outstanding finance on it, has never been pranged, isn't part-owned by his ex-wife, etc, etc.

Jonic or A. N. Other would basically be doing a glorified and very complex HPI and service history check, etc. for you so that you knew that, once he had the money and you had the receipt the boat was actually yours. I would imagine that Jonic pretty much already offers the service you are looking for and has done it quite a few times except that normally you would go to him and say "I'm looking for a 35-40' sloop, fin keel, aft cabin, max draft 5', age doesn't matter and budget is £100K after fettling" or something like that. Jonic would then go off and look for one for you after much discussion as to what you really wanted. In this case he doesn't have to do the looking because you already know the boat but he will have advised and prepared contracts for transfer of title many times I would have thought. As he says, leave the lawyers until you have a problem - the whole point of using an agent/broker is to avoid extra costs and complications.

 

[jonic]

Just about every argument I've seen against Brokers (apart from the fact that the really bad ones are lazy gits who can't even be bothered to get off their backsides to check the boat actually exists sometimes, never mind the stated condition) centres around the fact that you give all your money to Broker as he is acting as agent for the vendor. If the Broker does decide to do a runner with your money or lose it amongst his own debts you're in a dodgy position. This is incredibly rare (if it ever has actually happened at all) but, as a point of principle, I wouldn't give the money to someone who doesn't have title to transfer without an awful lot of protection. Why take even a slight risk when you don't have to? The way you're doing it it's much more like a car purchase. You have money, he has the car. You give him the money, get a receipt, and drive away in the car. If you can't drive away in the car you don't give him the money. The tricky bit is making sure that the car is actually his to sell, has no outstanding finance on it, has never been pranged, isn't part-owned by his ex-wife, etc, etc.

Jonic or A. N. Other would basically be doing a glorified and very complex HPI and service history check, etc. for you so that you knew that, once he had the money and you had the receipt the boat was actually yours. I would imagine that Jonic pretty much already offers the service you are looking for and has done it quite a few times except that normally you would go to him and say "I'm looking for a 35-40' sloop, fin keel, aft cabin, max draft 5', age doesn't matter and budget is £100K after fettling" or something like that. Jonic would then go off and look for one for you after much discussion as to what you really wanted. In this case he doesn't have to do the looking because you already know the boat but he will have advised and prepared contracts for transfer of title many times I would have thought. As he says, leave the lawyers until you have a problem - the whole point of using an agent/broker is to avoid extra costs and complications.

The ABYA contract system and brokerage system is set up not only to market the yachts but also to protect both parties from sellers who may or may not have title, or a defective title (quite common) or from buyers or sellers who do not clear debts, will not refund deposits or who fail to complete. It's also there to ensure both parties complete their contractual obligations in a fair and timely manner.

A good broker is there to arbitrate and keep the peace when the deal goes wobbly, not just sell the yacht. It's very much about brokering the transaction. Here's a description of what should happen, and most importantly why.