Short-handed downwind sail options

True, hence my hesitation in suggesting it. But if someone is thinking of doing a lot of downwind / tradewind sailing this might be a useful idea to look into.
There is more to sailing than Bermudan!
 
chriss999 said:
True, hence my hesitation in suggesting it. But if someone is thinking of doing a lot of downwind / tradewind sailing this might be a useful idea to look into.
There is more to sailing than Bermudan!
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Absolutely.
But from my point of view, where junk rig is limited is being able to add enough sail area for light airs downwind.
Most 'western' people putting junk rig on a yacht seem to go for similar sail area to the 'white' sails of the bermudan sloop rig.
I wonder if the orignal junk rig craft could often set more?
 
Good point. Looking at pictures of old Chinese junks, masts seem to pop up everywhere. But masts are shortish so sails have to be wide to get any significant sail area. As a lot of sail is set outboard this requires a big rudder and you may not want that.

I’ve put 25 square metres on my Kingfisher 20, compared with the original sail plan of a 10.2 main and 10.6 Genoa. This gives me plenty for coastal sailing; and if too much it can be reefed in a trice. Nothing to compare with a spinnaker, but much easier to handle.
 
chriss999 said:
True, hence my hesitation in suggesting it. But if someone is thinking of doing a lot of downwind / tradewind sailing this might be a useful idea to look into.
There is more to sailing than Bermudan!
Click to expand...

They will struggle to find a boat with a junk rig as none are built commercially, which in itself tells you something about the attractiveness of the idea.

If you are tradewind sailing then a bermudan or gaff rigged boat can be set up to be very effective with twin headsails with minimal modifications to a standard rig.

However that was not the question being asked in this thread. The OP (and most other respondents) own and sail bermudan rigged boats, often these days fractionally rigged. This type of rig is popular because it is the best compromise for the type of sailing the owners do, with its emphasis on windward and reaching. Its weakness, particularly in the latest small jib fractional style is downwind and the question is about an easily deployable sail for offwind work, mainly in lighter airs. It is not "what rig should I have for mostly downwind work" - that is a non question given that the choice has already been made against different criteria.

Interestingly even when that might be the question very few choose a junk rig boat, so given that few would buy a single purpose boat it would seem that a junk rig does not offer a viable compromise.
 
Some truth in that alas.
But junk rig conversions are possible and can sail very nicely. The key advantage of junk rig for me is the ease of use.

I’ve re-read your last sentence. I disagree, I believe that the junk rig can offer a viable alternative. But most people go with what they know, and with what is readily available.

(Amended to pick up your last point)
 
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chriss999 said:
Some truth in that alas.
But junk rig conversions are possible and can sail very nicely. The key advantage of junk rig for me is the ease of use.

I’ve re-read your last sentence. I disagree, I believe that the junk rig can offer a viable alternative. But most people go with what they know, and with what is readily available.

(Amended to pick up your last point)
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Of course you believe it - you own a junk rigged boat. However, even when it was being pushed hard and regularly featured in the press, very few people converted their boats.

Think you have to accept, for all its perceived advantages very few people were sufficiently convinced to actually follow it through.
 
Tranona said:
...
Think you have to accept, for all its perceived advantages very few people were sufficiently convinced to actually follow it through.
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Apart from tens of thousands of Chinese type fellas.
Cruising boats in the west copy racing boats in the west. And most rating rules have pushed us towards masthead sloop rig until recently.
We are as a culture, a bit conservative. So alternative rigs get short shrift. Whether it's rotating aero rigs, catboats, whatever.
Just because what we're used to seems to be the best compromise doesn't mean alternatives don't work.
Junk rig is not just for downwind either.

I find it a bit amusing that cruising sailors and most yacht sailors dismiss anything that doesn't look like a 60s IOR boat, while 'no limits' racers (and those restrained by various rule sets) are evolving towards four-sided sails.

If you took an assymetric spinnaker, added some full-length battens and made it reefable, it would be a lot like some junk sails..
The only reason that hasn't happened is that battens in kites are banned under all the rating rules (?...discuss?)
 
Tranona said:
Of course you believe it - you own a junk rigged boat.
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Take a breath, Mr T. I too can believe junk rig is a very viable alternative, and I've never even been aboard one.

Chriss, don't feel insulted. Most yachtsmen are torpidly conservative, and some are volubly reluctant to accept alternative ideas.

The Kingfisher looks great!

Kingfisher%20junk%20rig_zps78c8lnht.jpeg
 
dancrane said:
Take a breath, Mr T. I too can believe junk rig is a very viable alternative, and I've never even been aboard one.

Chriss, don't feel insulted. Most yachtsmen are torpidly conservative, and some are volubly reluctant to accept alternative ideas.

The Kingfisher looks great!

Kingfisher%20junk%20rig_zps78c8lnht.jpeg
Click to expand...

My point is not that junk rig is not effective, it is that, despite all the hype (and all the examples in other parts of the world with different style boats) it has not been accepted by yachtsmen in the west as a viable alternative to the rigs developed for our sailing conditions here.

So, the OP has a CO32 and is considering ways of improving the offwind performance. Suggesting he converts to junk rig is perhaps not helpful, although I like awol's suggestion of a crowd funding project to try it out.
 
Presumably the principal impediment would be the careful (possibly hefty?) engineering of a mast footing to support an unstayed mast?

A chap I vaguely know, lately sold his Co32, despite a long time declaring it the finest thing afloat. I always liked the style, but I was never tempted to join him for a sail, even for a day-trip. His example seemed to combine the minimal accommodation of old-school racers, and virtually no modern concessions to ease of use.

I'm still (after three years) constructing and assembling my Osprey's asymmetric spinnaker/sprit-launcher. It may prove the longest ever run-up to a total anti-climax...

...but I remain sold on the idea of benefiting as a singlehander, from a downwind sail which doesn't require manipulation of twinned guys and sheets, and pole (and pole tackle...:hopeless:).
 
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I am awaiting delivery of a cruising chute with a top down furler. My only experience with a spinnaker in a cruiser was on my Eventide. On the few occasions I flew it (with a crew) it was fine when it was under control but a nightmare in a gust. Put me off - it is still in my loft (along with an unused storm jib from 1963!). Even more scary than my few attempts with a spinnaker on my Osprey.

So, having solved most of the issues related to singlehanding on a relatively big boat my thoughts turned back to offwind sailing. The downside of the small jib fractional rig I now have is loss of performance when the wind moves aft as the jib starts to get blanketed by the main. This is just when the hull shape comes into its own so the hope is that the new sail will fill much of that gap and still be easy to handle. Reports from those who have this set up are good so looking forward to trying it out.
 
Tranona said:
...on my Eventide (with a crew) it was fine when it was under control but a nightmare in a gust. Even more scary than my few attempts with a spinnaker on my Osprey.
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Were you singlehanded when spinnakering the Osprey? :D I've heard it can be done...but to me, it's not quite as tempting as getting my RS400 asymm kite to substitute.
 
Tranona said:
I am awaiting delivery of a cruising chute with a top down furler. My only experience with a spinnaker in a cruiser was on my Eventide. On the few occasions I flew it (with a crew) it was fine when it was under control but a nightmare in a gust. Put me off - it is still in my loft (along with an unused storm jib from 1963!). Even more scary than my few attempts with a spinnaker on my Osprey.

So, having solved most of the issues related to singlehanding on a relatively big boat my thoughts turned back to offwind sailing. The downside of the small jib fractional rig I now have is loss of performance when the wind moves aft as the jib starts to get blanketed by the main. This is just when the hull shape comes into its own so the hope is that the new sail will fill much of that gap and still be easy to handle. Reports from those who have this set up are good so looking forward to trying it out.
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We have a similar genoa and have found our asymmetric with snuffer brilliant once we got used to it and started leaving it on the foredeck (under the rib) at all times on a cruise with ropes ready rigged. And on a light winds day we leave it up in the snuffer ready to use or snuff at a moments notice. I'd prefer a furler but needed rigging work and changes I would have found hard to organise.

We often drop then main downwind to avoid blanketing and to make steering super easy except in very light winds but we are not after the last planing knot.
 
dancrane said:
Were you singlehanded when spinnakering the Osprey? :D I've heard it can be done...but to me, it's not quite as tempting as getting my RS400 asymm kite to substitute.
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No, only brave enough to fly it with another 100kg crew on board.
 
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