serious problem - please help!

[fedor]

hi all,

I am a (un)happy owner of an 31 feet iroko sloop, designed by J F Johnes and bult in Northern Ireland by B Martin - a sister boat to "Little Iolaire", featured in March edition of CB magazine. She is carvel build on steam-bent oaken frames, but, most unusually, her planks are edge glued with resorcinol (I think it is resorcinol as it is a bit reddish color).
This season we sailed her from Ireland to Turkey, and she did not have any major problem on the way. But as we came to Turkey and nights got colder, her topsides started to crack. It all happened quite suddenly with two planks cracking almost third of boat length with very loud bangs - and one of them was on the waterline, so we started to get some water in. After a very interesting night we took her out of the water to survey the damage and another plank cracked along the seam. Problem was obvious: she dried out so much during the summer, so when the temperature suddenly dropped, planks started to contract rapidly and crack.

So we took off the dark-green paint from topsides, covered her from the sun and are splining the cracks now with okume - it's much softer than iroko and should do the job for us - but I keep getting suggestions that we should sheath her. Or, at least, impregnate the outer layer with epoxy and then cover her with epoxy+microfibers to stop cracking. I am very much against it, but I really do not want her to open any more cracks..

What do you think? Considering out situation - edge glued, very dry etc - will epoxy treatment help us or is it just a waste of time? Should we also epoxy treat her from inside in this case? What would you suggest? Or may be open the glued edges and caulk her in trad way? Replace cracked planks (I considered this, but price of iroko and amount of planks to replace...)

All advices are welcome.



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[PBrooks]

Sorry to hear of your problems. I believe epoxy should not be used. Just coating the outside (or inside) and filling the spline is unlikely to work as it will probably crack at the plank joint, letting in water again. Equally, sheathing with fibreglass will likely suffer the same problem (unless very thick) as the forces involved when planks work due to motion or swell due to water ingress are greater than the bond epoxy can give. A couple of other thoughts. You might also consider a lighter hull colour in the future to reflect heat, though I'm not sure how much effect this will have. And re-reading your post, it does sound quite serious, as if the resorcinol is failing rather than just drying out. If this is the case, then I would imagine you'll need to check the mechanical fastenings (screws / bolts etc into the ribs / floors) to ensure the integrity of the hull.

All in all, I would ask for a second opinion from an experienced wooden boat builder. You could also try the www.woodenboat.com forum - a very serious bunch of people who have experience and strong opinions on the use of epoxy with old(er) boats. They'll want pictures of the damage and lots of detail, but I'm sure they'll have somebody who has been through the same thing.
Good luck and best regards
Paul Brooks

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[fedor]

Thank a lot for your post, Paul. I will go to woodenboats.com and ask them for advice.

To clarify a bit my situation: glue is sound, planks crack in the wood along the grain, but the grain is so straight that in some cases crack goes in parallel with the seams. Mechanical fastenings seem to be fine - that was the first thing I have checked, although in some cases crack went through the rivet (she has copper rivets and galv floors+bolts). I really would like to open the seams and do the caulking as it should be done - with no glue involved - but it seems impossible to do it with a proper bevel..
I believe that the dark hull color combined with the edge-glued techique is a reason of our troubles...so it's goodbye to International Donegall Green until we get her to wetter climates.



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[Mirelle]

Yes, I think so too. Dark colour makes a huge difference - someone on the WoodenBoat forum actually posted figures for this about three years ago.

I certainly would not think about sheathing, epoxy, etc., and I would think that what you are doing is absolutely right. Just resign yourself to having a glossy white boat until you have her home in the Irish climate!



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[Peterduck]

It sounds like another case of "a little knowledge . . . . " ruining an otherwise good boat. Often the cracks [and certainly toward the ends] will be too fine to caulk in the normal way. Have a think about melting beeswax into the cracks. It will squeeze out when the planks swell up again. I have done this [albeit on decks which are easier to work on] by inserting fine shavings of beeswax into the crack and then melting it in place with a soldering iron or heat gun. The blast of air from a heat gun does tend to blow everything all over the place; I found the soldering iron the better of the two. Sheathing or coating [either inside or out] is not at all appropriate to a carvel hull.
Peter.

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[MeritaII]

Hi Paul,
Sorry to hear your problem, sounds to me like some one might have already done a quick fix , but this may not be the case. However she was built it is probably not a good idea to make your problem worse by sheathing. Sheathing is not a good idea on a planked boat, as many will probably tell you. you just hide the problem it dosn't go away.
You seem to be doing what you can in the short term , but I have my doubts about longer term, if the hull is drying out it will have to shrink somewhere, you could end up with more split than plank !
Without seeing the boat it is difficult to know for what reason she was glued in the first place.If you can, e-mail me a pictuer it would help, so I can see what you've got.
Do you think this glue work is original? .
They sometimes built boats 'close seamed' and glued like this in Scanadanavia, maybe the idea was the same when she was built.

I certainly don't think that applying any kind of resin or glass will help in the end , I suspect that the planks will continue to split because the glue is stronger than the fibres in the timber, after all it has to go somewhere.when it expands/contracts.

I personaly feel that the best thing to do is to first look closser at the seams, I don't see how anyone can glue a tapered seam unless it has been splined as well.
If the seams arn't beveld then she may not have ever been caulked.
She could be 'close seamed' that is without a bevel for caulking, but that is normaly done with larch not hardwoods such as you have. Someone then took it into their heads to glue the seams because some leaked a bit.
Whatever you find you would probably need to get that glue out and replac it with caulking and putty so that the wood can move a bit in assorted conditions. It seems you also prefer this option. But how ?
Perhaps have a word with John and 'Traditional Boat' He seems to have a tool for just about everything !
I know that the affects of light on paint can cause problems, but splitting planks ? I have my doubts that this is at the root of the problem , though it may not be helping in such a warm climate. Probably due more to drying out in the heat (As you say) the planks contract they can't seperate at the seams because of the glue so they split
Do you think you can get the glue out ?
How wide are the seams ?
How many boards are affected ?
Are others showing signs of spliting, even small ones.
What are the ribs looking like ?
how is she fastned, screws, bolts or nails and roves



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[fedor]

hi

no, seams are not tapered. you can see glue lines all over her topsides - as thin as may be 0.2-0.5 mil, a bit reddish in color - I think resorcinol. It is definitely original job and no, she never was caulked.
There are other signs of splitting, but not as serious as the cracks we repair now. We open every big crack for at least 20 mm after its end and epoxy in some okume.. Because some cracks are huge we have splines 15mm wide on average and some big 20 mm splines.
I do not think we can take the glue out and have the proper bevel - as I said existing seams are not beveled. Or may be wee could, but I simply do not if it's the right thing to do - after all, builder have not intended her to be that way...

Ribs/fasteners look fine so far, but I will do more detailed survey tomorrow.

She is fastened with copper nails+roves


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[fedor]

Mr Peterduck!

beeswax?! you have to see the flipping cracks!! I do not talk about tiny cracks which you certainly can fill with something like that - my problem is cracks 3.5 meters long and 10 mm wide at some points. Going all the way through the plank, by the way.
And please, do not say anything like "people with little knowledge are ruining good boats again". I certainly do not qualify myself as a professional shipwright, but I think I migh have learned few things about wooden boats. She is all I have and I have enough hard time already trying to fix her up before she dries under the waterline too much and cracking planks there as well, so please, let's be constructive.



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[dip_lug]

I certainly won’t try to offer advice, anything I can think of has already been intelligently discussed.

Knowing the pride we all have in our wooden boats, I believe I speak for everyone here in wishing you the best in what is obviously a very serious situation. Hopefully someone over at www.woodenboat.com forum can suggest an affordable solution. Please keep us updated.

Colin

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[mtb]

Have you considered using a router to both clean up the cracks and also with the right bit set the required bevel in readyness for normal calking. It may be possible to set up a guid to enable the router to run along the split with out veering off !!!.
I dont think pumping water over the hull would help, not while the planks are split because closing em up again wont cure the problem and the weakness will still be there.

Cheers
Mick


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[Richard_Blake]

Re: router, etc

I was thinking about a router, too. Had a similar problem with bevels. Couldn't find a tapered router bit here in the Netherlands (any sources for same greeted with cries of joy) but our knife/saw/lawnmower sharpener who does the circular saw blades for all the local carpenters ground a narrow straight router bit down to almost exactly the perfect taper - minimal careful hand sanding needed afterwards, with pieces cut out of nice stiff belt-sander belts, to get rid of minimal ledge in bottom of bevel.

At the risk of teaching my grandmother.....: If you're going back to traditional seams and caulking, Í would think it's very important to make sure the planks are truly separated - all glue gone. So perhaps a circular saw with a fine blade, running along a guide parallel to the seam? Remember though, that plank thicknesses are often not the same throughout a boat. Often a bit thinner nearer the ends. So suggest always starting a cut between frames, at a point you can see from inside the boat, to double-check your depth-setting before you take chunks out of frames.
Does anyone else remember reading an article in Wooden boat, I think, which talked about this kind of job being done with a specially ground circular saw blade cutting the bevel at the same time? How would it be ground? Perhaps set at a slight angle and bevelling the edge of one plank only?

Good luck
Richard



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[MeritaII]

Hi Again Paul,
Seems to me you are doing all you can, ( bees wax ? yea right !)

It would take you months to get all the glue out , and that may be the wrong thing to do anyway. In the meantime every other plank will start to dry out , the danger which you are already aware of. Your whole situation could just get worse.
Keep the whole boat as wet as you can, even if it means putting some water in the bilge for a few days , won't hurt. Do what you are doing and keep her out of the sun as much as you can .
Get your splines in , paint the boat white and get her back in the water, just as quick as you can . Probably in the cooler weather she will swell again and take some of the tennsion out of the boards.
Without major work I don't think there is much else you can do , it is a difficult situation. Other options like putting in bevels and then caulking probably arn't practical anyway.
It might pay you to get some oil in her before you put the paint on, thin it down well so it gets right in there and softens the fibres a bit, give it a few days before you paint.
Anyone with a caulked boat knows what the sun can do , and why we hang bits of carpet over the side and keep it well soaked.
Your effects are different but the cause is the same , too dry.
Sorry I can't be of more help , hope you get on OK
Regards Adrian



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[Peterduck]

I was not trying to criticise you Fedor, [you need help, not criticism] but the person who applied the glue. You are suffering for their mistake. It certainly sounded like the sort of thing that would have been done by someone after it was built. I also did not appreciate the size of the cracks that your boat is suffering from, and certainly splining would now seem to be the best option for you. Another option [proably less palatable] is to take it back to Ireland.
Peter.

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[Hushinish]

This sounds scary! I guess the problem is that if you use a soloution in your current hot climate that isn't reversable when you go home then there could be a problem of expansion of the Iroko, unless the moisture is prevented from entering the cells of the timber in the future. There is that old adage about tropical timber built boats being ok to sail to the North, but timbers from the north not being very good in the south, maybe your boat was built with timber that had been left in a damp enviroment. My theory would be this.

Sort out the problem where you are presently, and prevent too much moisture reentering the planking. The router idea would work best, I would temporaily fix 2 battens either side of the crack spaced the width of the router base apart and regularise the width of the crack an introduce a bevel. you could purchase a suitable bit online in the UK and have it delivered. Then you might think about having some Iroko machined to the correct profile and fix and caulk in place.

Unless you have the skills,you might need a boat builder.

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[fedor]

many thanks for your advices, folks

hi all

I really appreciate your advices - there are not too many wooden boats (2) in the boatyard where we are repairing "Isha", so your moral and technical support is really needed.
My apologies to Peterduck - I did not read his post the way I should. (We are actually considering using beeswax on some small cracks - Turkey is The place to get beeswax and all honey you can eat.

Router idea - we found it impossible to get even a straight router bit in Marmaris, so we are using a circular handsaw, set to 3/4 width of the planks to cut out space for splnes. It works more or less allright, although you have to chisel out the rest of the wood between the cracks and move the guiding straight edge plank in precise parallel with the previous cut ... which is not easy on curved hull. Another problem is that sometimes crack went through the rivet and as I want to live all rivets in place we have to drill a hole in the spline to fit over the rivet. I will glue splines in with epoxy, and we taper splines a little bit so that the glue goes to the sides of the spline when you insert it, not through the crack.

Overall opening seams with a tapered router bit seems like an idea - I might do it later in colder/wetter climate, if the boat survives current ordeal.

I was very surprised to see that seams are glued - in my innocence I thought that the fairness of the hull was due to somebody's perfect caulking/paying of the seams. Folks, if anybody has March edition of CB at hand - can you tell me if "Little Iolaire" was edge glued? She was build by the same guy and to the same design, directly before/after "Isha", and she is sailing in Carribean for some years now...I wonder how Mr Don Street addresses the problem.

Again, many thanks for your support. We really need it.

Fedor


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[Mirelle]

Edge glued carvel

This method did enjoy a vogue. From memory, the International One Designs are all edge glued; they are 30-foot-ish daysailing keelboat like a big Dragon.

Indeed I suspect the method is Scandinavian in origin.

I do dimly remember the Wooden Boat article, about using a specially ground circular saw, that Richard Blake mentions.

If you have not already done so - paint her white immediately. In Victorian times (and perhaps earlier, but we have no photographs!) any sailing vessel laid up over the English summer was whitewashed.

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[Richard_Blake]

On reflection, I think I agree with Adrian pretty much entirely. Get her back in her element fast. Cutting, bevelling and caulking would certainly take weeks, and maybe indeed months, and further drying out could make it all worse. Maybe a cover with hanging, weighted skirts once she's back in the water, then see how it goes. Big decisions once you see the results.
I agree on oil, too - where we've used it it seems to damp down (oh dear, a pun) the water loss and absorption rates. Only things to consider, perhaps, are if you think you might want to use epoxy glue on the wood afterwards, and choice of primer over oiled wood - may mean sticking with traditional paint types.

Beeswax? Personally I love the idea - going to try it to at least postpone major intervention where tongues are letting go of grooves in mahogany cabin sides... enough work for us below the sheerline at the moment!

Good luck
Richard



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[Jacket]

I'm know very little about wooden boats, so this may be total rubbish. If the planks are glued, this is going to produce a stronger structure than traditional carvel construction, as the hull forms a stiff shell. Therefore, all the framing may have been reduced in size as its less necessary to stiffen the hull.

If this is the case, caulking the hull, while filling the gap, won't return the hull to its previous strength, and you're likely to have a weak line along the crack. My feelings would be, the only reliable repair would be to reglue the hull. maybe you could use a router to make a uniform slot along the hull, shape a strip of wood to fit, and epoxy it in place?

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[fedor]

she is actually overframed (in my opinion) and has very solid galvanized floors...I do not think that edge-glueing was done to reduce the amount of frames and strength of other structural timbers.

as far as immediate fix is concerned - that's exactly what we do: cut out the slot around the crack and glue in some wood. we have done all cracks on port side today in that fashion, and it seems ok so far (3 hours since epoxy went hard . but as we opened to 3/4 of plank depth (1") one small crack on starboard side, she immediately cracked the plank, continuing he crack. obviously, there is a lot of stress in planking already - she dried out too much.... I can only hope that timber on topsides has reached the point of almost 0% moisture content and will not continue to shrink as the boat sits on the hard. We covered her in taurpaline and wet her for half an hour two times a day, but it's barely enough - it's still +28 here during the day and not even a tiny cloud in the sky..



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[clyst]

Hi Fedor ,

Read the posts with interest and two things spring to mind------
1 Its not normal to edge glue Iroko planks on build (Wood too oily). Is she narrow planked and edged nailed ? Seems a big boat to have glued seams . and 2 If you have routed and fitted splines what happens to the planks when you bring the boat back to these latitudes??

Regards

Terry



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