bryan
New Member
Does anyone have real life experience with deploying a series drogue or parachute anchor in storm conditions, which is the best.
series drogue or parachute sea anchor
- Thread starter bryan
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charles_reed
Well-Known Member
No experience of using one in storm conditions, but I'd plump for the series drogue have used them in anger with RNLI.
Problem with para-anchor appears to be recovery when wind starts to drop and sea to increase at mid-point in storm.
Problem with para-anchor appears to be recovery when wind starts to drop and sea to increase at mid-point in storm.
sheeplove
Active Member
Having played with both in reasonable conditions (channel F7 - F8), aboard 48' cutter, I can only recomend trailing warps! same result & easier to recover.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Search back a year and you will find more threads than you can shake a stick at.
Talbot
Well-Known Member
They do different jobs. The parachute holds you in one spot, the series drogue reduces speed through the water.
For both, the attachment points will be under immense strain.
Choice really depends on boat design, as some boats are not strong enough at the stern to cope with being hit by a breaking wave.
best place for advice and real experience is the Drag Device Data Base
For both, the attachment points will be under immense strain.
Choice really depends on boat design, as some boats are not strong enough at the stern to cope with being hit by a breaking wave.
best place for advice and real experience is the Drag Device Data Base
bglover
New Member
Dear Bryan,
I have used both, para anchors and over the last few years the series drogue. After 20 years of off shore sailing nothing comes close to the overall package of the series drogue, not in small part to being able to close the companionway doors and get some shut eye. I have never had problems retrieving the series drogue (using sheet winch) and all the predictions of performance by the designer have been met.
I have included this letter from Don Jordan explaining the drogue which my be of some help.
Quote
"Mike and Joyce Creasy reported that while riding to a parachute sea anchor, they waltzed through 40 degrees each side of the wind in a moderate storm. Heavy loads damaged the attachments of the rode, and the rudder quadrant was broken. Several letters commenting on this event appeared in the December issue of Lat & Attitudes. It is apparent from this literature that the authors were not familiar with the series drogue, often called the Jordan series drogue.
I developed this drogue in conjunction with the Coast Guard. It is the first and only such device to be specifically designed for a 'worst case' breaking wave strike. Such a strike is described in Miles Smeeton's book 'Once Is Enough'. Modern engineering tools such as scale model testing in flow channels and breaking wave tanks, computer dynamic simulation, and laboratory testing for structural strength and durability were used in the development, as well as full scale testing using a 42-foot Coast Guard powerboat. The final design was tested in large breaking waves at the Coast Guard National Motor Lifeboat School in Ilwaco, Washington. This work is described in U.S. Coast Guard Report C.G.-D-20- 87, Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts
www.seriesdrogue.com see:- Coast Guard report
The series drogue has now been at sea for almost 20 years. At least 1500 - and possibly over 2,000 - are in use all over the world. Many skippers have made their own, a tedious but not difficult job. The drogue has been deployed in many storms, including at least two of hurricane strength. The record has been flawless. No boat has suffered any damage, no crewman has been injured, and the drogue has been retrieved in the as launched condition. Every skipper has been satisfied with the performance. This conclusively puts to rest the old fear of being pooped when held stem to the waves. There are simple and sound engineering reasons for this most remarkable performance.
There is a growing recognition among those using the drogue that 'storm tactics' are no longer required. When the weather deteriorates to the point where useful progress is impossible or even uncomfortable, they deploy the drogue and retire to the cabin with the knowledge that they are protected from anything the sea can bring on. The boat rides easily with less than 10° of yaw, and with a drift rate of 1.5 knots. The drogue loads are low, about 15% of the design load. The design load is only approached in the rare event of a 'worst case' breaking wave strike capable of catapulting the boat ahead of the wave. In this event the drogue is designed to align the semi-airborne boat with the wave, decelerate the boat, and pull it through the breaking crest without exceeding the allowable load on the drogue or boat.
Books such as Cole's 'Heavy Weather Sailing' - a favorite of mine for many years - are actually no longer pertinent. Understandably, this thought is bitterly contested by a few experienced sailors who regret the loss of the need for sea lore, judgment, and skill in handling their vessels in bad conditions. I am an aeronautical engineer and view the drogue as similar in function to the ejection seat on a fighter aircraft - you pull the handle and sit back until it is all over.
I have avoided having any financial interest in the manufacture or sale of the device. I have now been working on this subject for over 25 years. I continue to function as a technical center for receiving and disseminating information on service experience, and have communicated with over 300 skippers. I have a 12-minute Coast Guard video which I send free to any skipper who makes or buys a drogue and who expresses a technical interest in the development. A good website to obtain information on the drogue is www.seriesdrogue.com
In the course of this program, I have studied the history of sea anchors and drogues. A sea anchor is intuitively attractive. It brings to mind anchoring in a harbor, safe and secure. Sea anchors have been carried on some sailing yachts over a long period of time. I have not been able to find a single instance where they provided protection in a major storm, and many instances when they contributed to the loss of the vessel. We now know that the sea anchors used were much too small to pull the bow into the wind.
When mulithulls began to go to sea in the 1960s, a number were capsized in conditions where a monohull would be expected to survive. This led to experimentation with sea anchors. I believe that the Casanovas were one of the first to try the large aircraft surplus parachute. They found that the chute would hold the boat into the wind in moderate storm conditions with little yaw and would prevent capsize. The cyclic loads on the rode were very high but a solution was found by providing a long and stretchy rode to compensate for the relative motion between the immovable chute and the boat. A number of multihull skippers have successfully used the chute in moderate storms.
This led to attempts to use the chute on monohulls. However the situation here is very different. A monohull is directionally unstable when moving backward because the center of pressure of the underwater surface is behind the center of gravity. As any skipper knows, it is possible to run off before a storm - but it is not possible to run off backwards as the boat will yaw. There are two additional sources of instability. The center of pressure of the air forces on the topsides and rigging is ahead of the center of gravity. There is also a third and more complex dynamic instability. The last two instabilities result in the behavior observed when a monohull is anchored from the bow in protected water during a hurricane. "It is particularly unnerving to watch a yacht tacking back and forth on a mooring under bare poles and knocking flat at the end of each tack," reported one who watched a monohull during hurricane Bertha. If the boat had been anchored from the stern, it would ride with little yaw.
When riding to a parachute sea anchor, a monohull will yaw wildly. As the storm increased in severity, it would develop load sufficient to break the rode. A sea anchor does not provide safety in a survival storm.
Although a multihull is also unstable when moving backwards, it is less unstable than a monohull because it has less underwater surface aft. This moderate instability is overcome by the stabilizing effect of the wide bridle - 20 feet or more - and the combination is stable. Thus the boat will ride well in a moderate storm. However, the large chute is essentially immovable, and in a survival storm will develop loads sufficient to break the rode. At six knots, an 18 foot chute would develop a load of 30,000 lbs - if it didn't fail first. The series drogue would only have a load of 900 lbs. The series drogue will protect both the monohull and the multihull in a survival storm.
Donald J. Jordan, Consulting Engineer
Glastonbury, CT
unquote
Thanks Jackman
I have used both, para anchors and over the last few years the series drogue. After 20 years of off shore sailing nothing comes close to the overall package of the series drogue, not in small part to being able to close the companionway doors and get some shut eye. I have never had problems retrieving the series drogue (using sheet winch) and all the predictions of performance by the designer have been met.
I have included this letter from Don Jordan explaining the drogue which my be of some help.
Quote
"Mike and Joyce Creasy reported that while riding to a parachute sea anchor, they waltzed through 40 degrees each side of the wind in a moderate storm. Heavy loads damaged the attachments of the rode, and the rudder quadrant was broken. Several letters commenting on this event appeared in the December issue of Lat & Attitudes. It is apparent from this literature that the authors were not familiar with the series drogue, often called the Jordan series drogue.
I developed this drogue in conjunction with the Coast Guard. It is the first and only such device to be specifically designed for a 'worst case' breaking wave strike. Such a strike is described in Miles Smeeton's book 'Once Is Enough'. Modern engineering tools such as scale model testing in flow channels and breaking wave tanks, computer dynamic simulation, and laboratory testing for structural strength and durability were used in the development, as well as full scale testing using a 42-foot Coast Guard powerboat. The final design was tested in large breaking waves at the Coast Guard National Motor Lifeboat School in Ilwaco, Washington. This work is described in U.S. Coast Guard Report C.G.-D-20- 87, Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts
www.seriesdrogue.com see:- Coast Guard report
The series drogue has now been at sea for almost 20 years. At least 1500 - and possibly over 2,000 - are in use all over the world. Many skippers have made their own, a tedious but not difficult job. The drogue has been deployed in many storms, including at least two of hurricane strength. The record has been flawless. No boat has suffered any damage, no crewman has been injured, and the drogue has been retrieved in the as launched condition. Every skipper has been satisfied with the performance. This conclusively puts to rest the old fear of being pooped when held stem to the waves. There are simple and sound engineering reasons for this most remarkable performance.
There is a growing recognition among those using the drogue that 'storm tactics' are no longer required. When the weather deteriorates to the point where useful progress is impossible or even uncomfortable, they deploy the drogue and retire to the cabin with the knowledge that they are protected from anything the sea can bring on. The boat rides easily with less than 10° of yaw, and with a drift rate of 1.5 knots. The drogue loads are low, about 15% of the design load. The design load is only approached in the rare event of a 'worst case' breaking wave strike capable of catapulting the boat ahead of the wave. In this event the drogue is designed to align the semi-airborne boat with the wave, decelerate the boat, and pull it through the breaking crest without exceeding the allowable load on the drogue or boat.
Books such as Cole's 'Heavy Weather Sailing' - a favorite of mine for many years - are actually no longer pertinent. Understandably, this thought is bitterly contested by a few experienced sailors who regret the loss of the need for sea lore, judgment, and skill in handling their vessels in bad conditions. I am an aeronautical engineer and view the drogue as similar in function to the ejection seat on a fighter aircraft - you pull the handle and sit back until it is all over.
I have avoided having any financial interest in the manufacture or sale of the device. I have now been working on this subject for over 25 years. I continue to function as a technical center for receiving and disseminating information on service experience, and have communicated with over 300 skippers. I have a 12-minute Coast Guard video which I send free to any skipper who makes or buys a drogue and who expresses a technical interest in the development. A good website to obtain information on the drogue is www.seriesdrogue.com
In the course of this program, I have studied the history of sea anchors and drogues. A sea anchor is intuitively attractive. It brings to mind anchoring in a harbor, safe and secure. Sea anchors have been carried on some sailing yachts over a long period of time. I have not been able to find a single instance where they provided protection in a major storm, and many instances when they contributed to the loss of the vessel. We now know that the sea anchors used were much too small to pull the bow into the wind.
When mulithulls began to go to sea in the 1960s, a number were capsized in conditions where a monohull would be expected to survive. This led to experimentation with sea anchors. I believe that the Casanovas were one of the first to try the large aircraft surplus parachute. They found that the chute would hold the boat into the wind in moderate storm conditions with little yaw and would prevent capsize. The cyclic loads on the rode were very high but a solution was found by providing a long and stretchy rode to compensate for the relative motion between the immovable chute and the boat. A number of multihull skippers have successfully used the chute in moderate storms.
This led to attempts to use the chute on monohulls. However the situation here is very different. A monohull is directionally unstable when moving backward because the center of pressure of the underwater surface is behind the center of gravity. As any skipper knows, it is possible to run off before a storm - but it is not possible to run off backwards as the boat will yaw. There are two additional sources of instability. The center of pressure of the air forces on the topsides and rigging is ahead of the center of gravity. There is also a third and more complex dynamic instability. The last two instabilities result in the behavior observed when a monohull is anchored from the bow in protected water during a hurricane. "It is particularly unnerving to watch a yacht tacking back and forth on a mooring under bare poles and knocking flat at the end of each tack," reported one who watched a monohull during hurricane Bertha. If the boat had been anchored from the stern, it would ride with little yaw.
When riding to a parachute sea anchor, a monohull will yaw wildly. As the storm increased in severity, it would develop load sufficient to break the rode. A sea anchor does not provide safety in a survival storm.
Although a multihull is also unstable when moving backwards, it is less unstable than a monohull because it has less underwater surface aft. This moderate instability is overcome by the stabilizing effect of the wide bridle - 20 feet or more - and the combination is stable. Thus the boat will ride well in a moderate storm. However, the large chute is essentially immovable, and in a survival storm will develop loads sufficient to break the rode. At six knots, an 18 foot chute would develop a load of 30,000 lbs - if it didn't fail first. The series drogue would only have a load of 900 lbs. The series drogue will protect both the monohull and the multihull in a survival storm.
Donald J. Jordan, Consulting Engineer
Glastonbury, CT
unquote
Thanks Jackman
bryan
New Member
Dear Boatmike
I went back looking at old series drogue posts and found a lot , but no one with first hand experience, all posts are opinion, armchair experts.
Bryan
I went back looking at old series drogue posts and found a lot , but no one with first hand experience, all posts are opinion, armchair experts.
Bryan
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I, too, am an 'armchair expert', however, I own a series drogue based on talking to someone who has used one in anger, Noel Dilley. He has deployed his on his 28' Twister and on a larger boat in the Gulf stream. Both experiences have been written up in the yachting press about 10 years ago. There was also an account of a deployment on a trip to Greenland in Yachting Monthly about three years ago.
If you want to read a first hand account of the deployment of a para anchor then read The Pardey's book about Storm tactics. They deployed theirs in a typhoon in The Indian Sea.
I must admit to be slightly bemused by your question as to which is best, if you do your research you'll find mixed opinions about both. It's your boat you'll have to make your own mind up.
If you want to read a first hand account of the deployment of a para anchor then read The Pardey's book about Storm tactics. They deployed theirs in a typhoon in The Indian Sea.
I must admit to be slightly bemused by your question as to which is best, if you do your research you'll find mixed opinions about both. It's your boat you'll have to make your own mind up.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
You've entered territory where many people are entrenched in opposite camps, whether or not they have used drogues or a parachute anchor.
We looked long and hard at the pros and cons for each. Two obvious cons are boats using parahute anchors have lost their rudders; boats towing drogues have pitchpoled (there is a dramatic piece of USCG film showing it happen).
The conclusion we came to is that one size doesn't fit all - it depends on the type of boat you have. Specifically:
- if you have a long keeler with strong rudder attachments and strong forward cleats then a parachute anchor seemed to make sense (that's what we have and that's what we bought).
- if you have a fin keel and spade rudder, drogues seem to be the way to go.
- If you have a well built long fin and skeg hung rudder you could probably choose either system.
One key issue on either system is chafe and safe deployment. For our parachute anchor we made a chain bridle (covered with hose pipe) with rope tails. We also made another line that runs back to the cockpit so the anchor can be deployed from the safety of the cockpit. We set the bridle and line up before setting off on a passage if we think we may get bad weather. I'm glad to say we haven't used it in anger.
We looked long and hard at the pros and cons for each. Two obvious cons are boats using parahute anchors have lost their rudders; boats towing drogues have pitchpoled (there is a dramatic piece of USCG film showing it happen).
The conclusion we came to is that one size doesn't fit all - it depends on the type of boat you have. Specifically:
- if you have a long keeler with strong rudder attachments and strong forward cleats then a parachute anchor seemed to make sense (that's what we have and that's what we bought).
- if you have a fin keel and spade rudder, drogues seem to be the way to go.
- If you have a well built long fin and skeg hung rudder you could probably choose either system.
One key issue on either system is chafe and safe deployment. For our parachute anchor we made a chain bridle (covered with hose pipe) with rope tails. We also made another line that runs back to the cockpit so the anchor can be deployed from the safety of the cockpit. We set the bridle and line up before setting off on a passage if we think we may get bad weather. I'm glad to say we haven't used it in anger.
davies
Well-Known Member
Noel Dilly made his own series drogue - a labour of love that I think took his spare time for a whole winter. This probably explains why he gave me a parachute for my 50th birthday rather than making me a drogue.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
We also made our own series drogue, mother-in-law and friend sewed the mini-drogues, I sewed the drogues onto the mulitplait. I can confirm that is a labour of love and if the aussie company that makes them now had been in existence then, they would definitely have got my cash.
