Self-tacking Jib...thoughts?

I have a Hanse 445, which we usually sail two handed, though I'm effectively single handed much of the time. The S/T, together with all lines coming back to the helm make for an easy sail.
A "conventional" configuration would be far less relaxing. No issues with down wind performance.
 
I have a self tacking track for my jib (exactly the same boat as Sukris). Normally I sail with a genoa which makes it redundant. On the only occasion I set the jib on the self tacker I neither liked the set of the sail or the friction in the system. We normally sail two up and the boat has tracks and cars for conventional headsail handling. Maybe this season we will revisit it but I just didn't see the point of the thing. If I ever sailed single handed though I would be happy to reassess. Another point is that to get the necessary tension on the leech/ foot the Hanse headsails have a dirty great metal plate with three huge rings on the clew of the No 1 jib. What sort of damage that might do to foredeck crew if flying around in high winds I can't imagine. I really don't like the things, but am the first to say my opinion comes from limited experience.

Cheers
 
Thank you all for the excellent feedback - glad to have kicked off such an interesting thread.

Lots to think about, both pros and cons, especially the technical aspects.

One thing I picked up on; is it easy to convert from a traditional setup to S/T track and traveller?

Thanks again everyone.

Andy
 
My present boat and a previous one were Hunters and, like most Hunter cruisers, they have self-tacking jibs. They have their pros and cons like anything else, the main ones I identified being as follows.

Pros: good when short-tacking single handed, good sheeted hard in on the the wind.

Cons: loss of potential sail area due to not having any overlap, upper leech tends to sag away to leeward when sheet is eased giving excessive twist, not so easy to heave to.

You have always been able to specify an alternative conventionally sheeted jib for Hunters (about 110%) and those in the Owners' Association who have them report significant improvements in performance so I've recently ordered one myself. Most Hunter owners stay with the standard s/t jib and many supplement this with a large cruising chute set flying for off-wind sailing (Hunters call this a scooper). I had one myself on my Horizon 23 but didn't use it much.
 
AMCD300 said:
Thank you all for the excellent feedback - glad to have kicked off such an interesting thread.

Lots to think about, both pros and cons, especially the technical aspects.

One thing I picked up on; is it easy to convert from a traditional setup to S/T track and traveller?

Thanks again everyone.

Andy
Click to expand...

I reckon 90% of the replies here are from owners of boats factory built with (and in large part designed for) self tacking headsails.

I'd be slow to try and retrofit one to a boat conceived of with a conventional system.
 
bitbaltic said:
I reckon 90% of the replies here are from owners of boats factory built with (and in large part designed for) self tacking headsails.

I'd be slow to try and retrofit one to a boat conceived of with a conventional system.
Click to expand...

I should qualify that by saying that the track itself and it's supports are a big lump of stainless, bolted to the deck forward of the mast, to which the sail transfers all of its shear force, so perhaps a foredeck not built with a self-tacker in mind, on a boat intended to transfer that force to primary winches positioned far aft, ought to be evaluated before a track is put in.
 
AMCD300 said:
it easy to convert from a traditional setup to S/T track and traveller?
Click to expand...
Yes. Should be well thought out, though, for particular boat and a skipper himself too ;)
I'm about to do so, some ideas forming already. Two stays arrangement, light genoa or whatever in front - or cutter set-up with lower stay. Personally I'm not in favour of tracks and cars, unless this will fit well - have to measure.

Traveller design is bit critical, as it needs to have length proper for sheeting angle. Sometime coachroof is too narrow... http://newimages.yachtworld.com/res...15040602_17_0.jpg&w=250&h=170&t=1310731736000

Stretching the sail aft is an issue - that depends on sail cut. With sheet pulling sail aft track has to be set for direction of pull. Sheet has to go from track to a fairlead located quite far away, so not to interfere with car movement. Also sheet must be organized so it's not jamming or entangling somehow there. On Ex-SolentBoy's boat above this is dealt with elegantly.

Otherwise - track is set on angle and sheet led forward like this http://harken.ru/html_harken/catalog/01/1991.jpg
Many ways are in use: http://www.antal.it/index.php/en/ball-bearing-cars/sizes-110-150-190/self-tacking-systems

Another simple, old-fashioned way was just a roundbar with loop sliding on it freely - and tackle.

Of course the easiest and most efficient way is with a boom - but it obstructs foredeck. I liked wishbone boom idea, this is not in the way and keeps sail perfect shape, but will not be possible with roller reefing - good for staysail on cutter.
 
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bitbaltic said:
I should qualify that by saying that the track itself and it's supports are a big lump of stainless, bolted to the deck forward of the mast, to which the sail transfers all of its shear force, so perhaps a foredeck not built with a self-tacker in mind, on a boat intended to transfer that force to primary winches positioned far aft, ought to be evaluated before a track is put in.
Click to expand...

Good point - better to go with a yacht designed for it from the outset...

Andy
 
bitbaltic said:
I reckon 90% of the replies here are from owners of boats factory built with (and in large part designed for) self tacking headsails.

I'd be slow to try and retrofit one to a boat conceived of with a conventional system.
Click to expand...

Can only answer for my self.

My self tacking system is a kit from http://www.rutgerson.se it's easy to install and adapt.
These kind of systems are retrofitted to more boats than you think...
Probably it depends on where the boats are being used since short tacking is the strongest argument for having such a system.
Rutgerson is a Swedish company and self tacking systems are popular because of the coast they have.

Some pics from my boat, note that these pictures was not taken at the same time.
Initially the sheet was led forward and back later is was taken up into the mast and down (Hanse "style" - no snagging)

Self tacker seen from aft, no problem using a genoa if I need/want but it has been left at home after we converted.
DSC01067.jpg


Detail of sheet/barber hauling
SoftShackle.jpg


IMAG0050.jpg


Sail with standing batten
IMAG0064-1.jpg


Track details
IMAG0049.jpg
 
Rossynant said:
Yes. Should be well thought out, though, for particular boat and a skipper himself too ;)
I'm about to do so, some ideas forming already. Two stays arrangement, light genoa or whatever in front - or cutter set-up with lower stay. Personally I'm not in favour of tracks and cars, unless this will fit well - have to measure.

Traveller design is bit critical, as it needs to have length proper for sheeting angle. Sometime coachroof is too narrow... http://newimages.yachtworld.com/res...15040602_17_0.jpg&w=250&h=170&t=1310731736000

Stretching the sail aft is an issue - that depends on sail cut. With sheet pulling sail aft track has to be set for direction of pull. Sheet has to go from track to a fairlead located quite far away, so not to interfere with car movement. Also sheet must be organized so it's not jamming or entangling somehow there. On Ex-SolentBoy's boat above this is dealt with elegantly.

Otherwise - track is set on angle and sheet led forward like this http://harken.ru/html_harken/catalog/01/1991.jpg
Many ways are in use: http://www.antal.it/index.php/en/ball-bearing-cars/sizes-110-150-190/self-tacking-systems

Another simple, old-fashioned way was just a roundbar with loop sliding on it freely - and tackle.

Of course the easiest and most efficient way is with a boom - but it obstructs foredeck. I liked wishbone boom idea, this is not in the way and keeps sail perfect shape, but will not be possible with roller reefing - good for staysail on cutter.
Click to expand...

Food for thought - thanks. Good luck with the installation. I would love to know how it went, and if it is as good on the water as you had hoped.

Andy
 
JimC said:
My present boat and a previous one were Hunters and, like most Hunter cruisers, they have self-tacking jibs. They have their pros and cons like anything else, the main ones I identified being as follows.

Pros: good when short-tacking single handed, good sheeted hard in on the the wind.

Cons: loss of potential sail area due to not having any overlap, upper leech tends to sag away to leeward when sheet is eased giving excessive twist, not so easy to heave to.

You have always been able to specify an alternative conventionally sheeted jib for Hunters (about 110%) and those in the Owners' Association who have them report significant improvements in performance so I've recently ordered one myself. Most Hunter owners stay with the standard s/t jib and many supplement this with a large cruising chute set flying for off-wind sailing (Hunters call this a scooper). I had one myself on my Horizon 23 but didn't use it much.
Click to expand...

+1 Hunter 23 and it works
 
AMCD300 said:
@knuterikt

This is interesting. I am assuming that underneath the fixings there is some kind of reinforcing at work - does it move laterally under load or is it all solid?

Andy
Click to expand...
It's not moving in any direction :)

The legs are fixed with one large bolt at each leg. Large special washer on the underside of the deck, on deck there are these large washers with a dome in the middle - you can see it on this picture. On top of the domed washer there is a cylindrical nut with curved bottom that fit on the dome. This way the angle of the bolt can be adjusted to fit the angle of the deck and the angle of the legs. the legs are pushed down onto the cylindrical nut and locked with a horizontal bolt going for and aft.

The track is also fixed in the middle the two brackets you see in front of the mast have four through bolts each, the two slotted screws in picture two fix the track to the brackets.

Have not reinforced the deck more than it already was, solid fiberglass at all the fixing points, the area where the legs sit is probably one of the stiffest strongest points on the boat. We did however add a reinforcement plate between the legs because we kept the at full length.
IMAG0049.jpg


IMAG0050.jpg


Picture from Rutgerson http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowGroup=70&DisplaySubs=1&ChildTo= (Select any country and click continue to see the page properly)
Banner.jpg


Link to the kit (Select any country and click continue to see the page properly)
http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowProduct=444&childto=&Group=70
 
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knuterikt said:
It's not moving in any direction :)

The legs are fixed with one large bolt at each leg. Large special washer on the underside of the deck, on deck there are these large washers with a dome in the middle - you can see it on this picture. On top of the domed washer there is a cylindrical nut with curved bottom that fit on the dome. This way the angle of the bolt can be adjusted to fit the angle of the deck and the angle of the legs. the legs are pushed down onto the cylindrical nut and locked with a horizontal bolt going for and aft.

The track is also fixed in the middle the two brackets you see in front of the mast have four through bolts each, the two slotted screws in picture two fix the track to the brackets.

Have not reinforced the deck more than it already was, solid fiberglass at all the fixing points, the area where the legs sit is probably one of the stiffest strongest points on the boat. We did however add a reinforcement plate between the legs because we kept the at full length.

Picture from Rutgerson http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowGroup=70&DisplaySubs=1&ChildTo=
Banner.jpg


Link to the kit
http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowProduct=444&childto=&Group=70
Click to expand...

It does look the business...

Thanks for the link

Andy
 
bitbaltic said:
I should qualify that by saying that the track itself and it's supports are a big lump of stainless, bolted to the deck forward of the mast, to which the sail transfers all of its shear force, so perhaps a foredeck not built with a self-tacker in mind, on a boat intended to transfer that force to primary winches positioned far aft, ought to be evaluated before a track is put in.
Click to expand...
What kind of load's do you think the genoa track get?
The shear force is on the genoa lead block transfered to the genoa track - not the primary winch..
Even boats designed with large masthead genoas must be able to carry a small head sail with the lead block forward?

X-yachts even made a boat with a removable ST track that fitted onto the genoa track.
 
currently on our second yacht with self tacker - first one was a hunter horizon 272 and current one is a dehler 34 - in both cases we have had selftacker and also an overlapping genoa so chance to directly compare - without question in light airs the overlapping genoa has a performance edge but as pure cruising sailors overall we find ourselves using the selftacker most of the time and in any breeze prefer it - treated ourselves to a lovely new sanders sails self tacker with vertical battens last season and if we were specifying a new boat of similar design and size selftacker would be our first choice
7676084554
 
PaulR said:
currently on our second yacht with self tacker - first one was a hunter horizon 272 and current one is a dehler 34 - in both cases we have had selftacker and also an overlapping genoa so chance to directly compare - without question in light airs the overlapping genoa has a performance edge but as pure cruising sailors overall we find ourselves using the selftacker most of the time and in any breeze prefer it - treated ourselves to a lovely new sanders sails self tacker with vertical battens last season and if we were specifying a new boat of similar design and size selftacker would be our first choice
7676084554
Click to expand...

Thanks for that - I'm not going to be racing anyone so convenience matters more than performance...at least at the moment ;)
 
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