Self-tacking jib on rival 32 ?

[alisdair4]

SWMBO asked the question the other day- "why don't we have a self-tacking jib like these nice Hanses (insert other modern boat) ?"
There is an excellent thread on the subject here:http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...Jib-thoughts/page4&highlight=self+tacking+jib

But I was curious to know if anyone had tried this on a Rival 32. The structure should not be an issue, as she is built like a brick outhouse. The other issues about size of the headsail covered in the thread would seem less relevant given thta she has a masthead rig, and a fairly large foretriangle.

I will post this on the ROA forum too , but may get a quicker response here.

 

[Kelpie]

I know a guy who has one on his R34, if that's any help? Haven't seen it in use but he's done some very serious mileage so I guess it is up to the job. His setup has a wooden boom, can't remember any other details.

 

[alisdair4]

I know a guy who has one on his R34, if that's any help? Haven't seen it in use but he's done some very serious mileage so I guess it is up to the job. His setup has a wooden boom, can't remember any other details.

Thanks Mavanie. The boats are almost the same, so in principle, if it work for him it should work for me. Does he post on here?

 

[dunedin]

The hanse is designed with an over sized mainsail to compensate for the small jib. Not certain about the specific Rival but from its generation it is likely to have a much smaller mainsail and generate most power from the genoa. So changing to a narrow non-overlapping jib likely to be very inefficient below 20 knots.

Indeed I am less than convinced that self tacking jobs save effort
- it should be possible to get the standard genoa fully sheeted in without winches when tacking if use the smart technique
- one of the lowest effort way of sailing is genoa only, with no mainsail or boom to worry about. We can even go to windward in flat water under genoa only
- many of these boats end up needing an asymmetric / code zero downwind - which strikes me as much more nett hassle than a standard genoa

 

[knuterikt]

I posted some pictures in the thread you have already read http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?348823-Self-tacking-Jib-thoughts&p=4025826#post4025826

As my sailmaker said, with a masthead rig you get a high aspect head sail that is efficient, but you do loose sail area compared to a large genoa.
It's important to talk to a sailmaker who have experience with making self tacking head sails, it seems that some have problem making sails that set good on a self tacking system.
The standing batten (a round one) makes the sail fill the fore triangle with a more effective shape at the top.

 

[knuterikt]

The hanse is designed with an over sized mainsail to compensate for the small jib. Not certain about the specific Rival but from its generation it is likely to have a much smaller mainsail and generate most power from the genoa. So changing to a narrow non-overlapping jib likely to be very inefficient below 20 knots.

Indeed I am less than convinced that self tacking jobs save effort
- it should be possible to get the standard genoa fully sheeted in without winches when tacking if use the smart technique
- one of the lowest effort way of sailing is genoa only, with no mainsail or boom to worry about. We can even go to windward in flat water under genoa only
- many of these boats end up needing an asymmetric / code zero downwind - which strikes me as much more nett hassle than a standard genoa

The decisions must of course be made based on how and where the boat is sailed.
-No problem taking down the self tacking sail and use a genoa instead.
-We mostly use our boat with one ore two on board.
-We converted to self tacking because we sail in waters where we often have to short tack (and we prefer sailing not motoring)
-Going to windward under genoa only - doesn't work for me, on my boat the boom on the main tends itself when we are tacking
-Yes, we use an asymmetric going downwind in light conditions - and believe me it works far better than the genoa.
-The self tacking sail can be furled down and still work fine going to windward

 

[dunedin]

-We converted to self tacking because we sail in waters where we often have to short tack (and we prefer sailing not motoring)

That's like us - when we returned a charter boat in Croatia they insisted we must have refueled mid fortnight as we had used so little fuel.

But we can short tack our 36 footer and 140% genoa with minimal effort (two up and often solo) - by tacking the first part quickly then holding the boat just above heading on the new tack, the sail can be pulled in easily, and just winch last 6 inches. And we will generally leave most similar sized boats with self tacker jibs for dead to windward.
Some IRC racers are designed for proper kevlar blade jibs and are even better. But switching a traditional rig boat to a small jib is unlikey to be effective

 

[knuterikt]

That's like us - when we returned a charter boat in Croatia they insisted we must have refueled mid fortnight as we had used so little fuel.

But we can short tack our 36 footer and 140% genoa with minimal effort (two up and often solo) - by tacking the first part quickly then holding the boat just above heading on the new tack, the sail can be pulled in easily, and just winch last 6 inches. And we will generally leave most similar sized boats with self tacker jibs for dead to windward.

And I can tack my boat just by turning the wheel, I have sailed with a large genoa on my 38 feet boat so I know about your Technic....

With regard to upwind performance everything depends of the particular boat.
In my case as soon as it starts blowing a little the boat behaves better with the smaller sail.

Some IRC racers are designed for proper kevlar blade jibs and are even better. But switching a traditional rig boat to a small jib is unlikey to be effective

It all depends on the boat, the wind range you want to optimize for and the place you primarily sail.
Making a general statement like that is ....

 

[William_H]

I have been seriously considering a semi self tacking jib on my fractional 21fter. The plan was to put the jib on a boom rather than go the loose footed arrangement for jib.
It would mean the jib could be shaped perfectly as the main with outhaul. I proposed to fit one sheet system to the centre line and 2 adjustable sheets one each side to the gunwhale. The idea being that once the jib has tacked I could pull the sheet on the gunwhale down to be an effective vang. it would also I think permit backing of the jib for manouvering and tacking in rough water.
I seem to have come unstuck in that the bow rail would impede the movement of the boom for reaching and running. I had intended to fit a gooseneck at the bow fitting. A gooseneck further back would allow more boom swing out but I have an anchor hatch right in the way. Back further a mooring cleat. Further back would mean variable foot tension from beating to running.
One idea did occur to me that I could put a reef in the jib. The spare sail could be lashed down to the boom just like the main. Indeed with extra bits of string I could reef from the cockpit.
So I got out the intended sail an old genoa and measured it up to cut it up. I think it will be about no 2 or 3 size. Somehow it just seems too many difficulties. around the bow rail. I considered removing that but I need it for supporting the mast on the road and over winter. So it might just remain a dream.
One other unknown concern is the problem of a boom across the foredeck when picking up mooring or flying spin. I would not want to tack or gybe with jib up and someone on the foredeck.
I use hanked on jibs for preference. It did seem to me that to remove a light boom with jib attached would not be much more difficult than removing a jib alone and I could then hank on a genoa if I had the urge. We tend to get plenty of wind in the summer so sail size should be OK.
So just a few of my thoughts for a jib on a boom. good luck olewill

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... Making a general statement like that is ....

He didn't make a general statement though, he stated the two ends of the spectrum where self taking is effective and where it may not be effective.

The Rival 32 is very much a traditional mast head rig. She has a high bow, deep forefoot and a thick encapsulated keel; not to mention the fact that she is heavily built as well for a yacht that size. The bow is also quite affected by the wind. In strong winds where a No3 Genoa or Working Jib is required then a self tacking system could be used. However, if the OP is considering UK sailing, for example, then average winds in the summer sailing season are rarely above F3. The Rival 32 is quite a fast yacht for her age and point wells and keeps her speed through a chop but only if she is sailed with the correct sail area. In my opinion a good furling headsail, with two sizes of furling sail, would be a better option than a self tacking arrangement.

 

[alisdair4]

Thanks, all for some thought-provoking stuff. FWIW, I do have a 130% reefing genoa. We sail currently in the Baltic, almost always 2 up. My experience has been that above about 20 knots, the genoa is rolled away to 100%. The boat will sail to windward on this alone, quite well, if slightly unbalanced. Thus, the genoa is of a size to self-tack.
In lighter winds, of course, we need more sail, although having sailed on the West Coast of Scotland fairly extensively, I am not convinced that the winds are F3 or less in summer!
Incidentally, I am not seeking an "either or" solution (ie, to remove the option to use the genoa altogether)but would be interested to know if one foresail could be designed to do both jobs?

 

[William_H]

Incidentally, I am not seeking an "either or" solution (ie, to remove the option to use the genoa altogether)but would be interested to know if one foresail could be designed to do both jobs?

If you are seeking to use a furling genoa in self tacking mode then you will need a traveller sheet arrangement across the foredeck forward of the mast. This needs to be as wide as possible certainly wider than the existing sheeting points. It is best also if it is curved to a radius equal to the jib foot length.
You then get the difficulty of getting the fore and aft position correct in relation to sheeting the somewhat furled jib.
You would have to check the angle (ideal) of the jib sheets when you are beating with jib furled to that size. Can you bring the sheet to a traveller car on top of the deck ie at that height?
You might find you can tweak the jib pull angle by a little tension on the original jib sheets to get more aft pull but i suspect you will be looking for more pull down. The jib will not work well if it does not have the correct pull down and pull aft to get the top working. good luck olewill

 

[alisdair4]

Traveller width

If you are seeking to use a furling genoa in self tacking mode then you will need a traveller sheet arrangement across the foredeck forward of the mast. This needs to be as wide as possible certainly wider than the existing sheeting points. It is best also if it is curved to a radius equal to the jib foot length.
You then get the difficulty of getting the fore and aft position correct in relation to sheeting the somewhat furled jib.
You would have to check the angle (ideal) of the jib sheets when you are beating with jib furled to that size. Can you bring the sheet to a traveller car on top of the deck ie at that height?
You might find you can tweak the jib pull angle by a little tension on the original jib sheets to get more aft pull but i suspect you will be looking for more pull down. The jib will not work well if it does not have the correct pull down and pull aft to get the top working. good luck olewill

Will, thanks -that all seems clear to me except that getting the traveller as wide as the original sheeting points may take some doing. The boats which I have looked at here in the Baltic seem to have a somewhat narrower traveller (presumably for a blade or similar jib) and the conventional sheet tracks for when a Genoa is used. I suspect from your post that one sail will probably not do two jobs, and I would need to find a jib that did about 95% of my foretriangle, and was cut as you describe.

 

[Boo2]

Some IRC racers are designed for proper kevlar blade jibs and are even better.

What's the difference between a blade jib and a self-tacking jib ?

Boo2

 

[Kelpie]

What's the difference between a blade jib and a self-tacking jib ?

Boo2

A blade jib is one with a short foot but full length luff- making it tall and narrow (i.e. high aspect ratio). It can be used as a conventional headsail, but if the foot is short enough it could also be used as a self tacker.

 

[dunedin]

What's the difference between a blade jib and a self-tacking jib ?

Boo2

A racing blade jib would have maximum luff height, and a small overlap (say 105 or 110%) - often with battens and with conventional twin sheets, often set very close to the centre line and perhaps with side barber haulers.
So slightly more overlap and a lot more control than a self tacker.
PS. Our boat came with a natty laminate No. 3 blade jib but only been used twice. The Dacron 140% genoa is much faster in most winds and the battens in the blade prevent using on furler

 

[William_H]

Will, thanks -that all seems clear to me except that getting the traveller as wide as the original sheeting points may take some doing. The boats which I have looked at here in the Baltic seem to have a somewhat narrower traveller (presumably for a blade or similar jib) and the conventional sheet tracks for when a Genoa is used. I suspect from your post that one sail will probably not do two jobs, and I would need to find a jib that did about 95% of my foretriangle, and was cut as you describe.

Yes compromises all round. If the traveller is not wide enough you will end up with jib sheeted in too close to centre line. If the jib is rolled firther to allow for longer sheet traveller to clew that problem might be eased but at the expense of smaller jib.
I was assuming you wanted to use the same jib partially furled with only the need to change sheeting from 2 lines aft to one to a traveller tackle. Yes I do understand that a wider traveller would really get in the way. Maybe a narrower traveller would work well enough. You should try to figure out where sheeting point would be with narrower traveller then force the sheet by had to that point when sailing with the jib rolled to a degree that might allow self tacking.
Or you might consider a small bom with gooseneck on deck near the bow which is only attached to the clew of the partially furled jib. A centre point sheeting for self tacking and perhaps tweakers each side might get that jib setting correctly.
yes I do understand that it is quite a job to remove and change a jib on a furler because it is very big and must be unrolled to take off.
Regarding blade jibs. The problem being that with a tall short foot jib it takes a lot of down pull on jib sheeting to keep the leach tight and held up against the wind near the top. It takes modern materials and battens to get the jib to sit correctly to stop top falling away. good luck olewill




All very tricky. I guess if it were easy more people would do it. good luck olewill

 

[alisdair4]

Yes compromises all round. If the traveller is not wide enough you will end up with jib sheeted in too close to centre line. If the jib is rolled firther to allow for longer sheet traveller to clew that problem might be eased but at the expense of smaller jib.
I was assuming you wanted to use the same jib partially furled with only the need to change sheeting from 2 lines aft to one to a traveller tackle. Yes I do understand that a wider traveller would really get in the way. Maybe a narrower traveller would work well enough. You should try to figure out where sheeting point would be with narrower traveller then force the sheet by had to that point when sailing with the jib rolled to a degree that might allow self tacking.
Or you might consider a small bom with gooseneck on deck near the bow which is only attached to the clew of the partially furled jib. A centre point sheeting for self tacking and perhaps tweakers each side might get that jib setting correctly.
yes I do understand that it is quite a job to remove and change a jib on a furler because it is very big and must be unrolled to take off.
Regarding blade jibs. The problem being that with a tall short foot jib it takes a lot of down pull on jib sheeting to keep the leach tight and held up against the wind near the top. It takes modern materials and battens to get the jib to sit correctly to stop top falling away. good luck olewill




All very tricky. I guess if it were easy more people would do it. good luck olewill

Will, thanks again. As you say, compromises required! I guess that the inconvenience of having a traveller on the foredeck may be balanced out by not having to wind in (or pull in, if the technique is there) a jib 50 times when short tacking! We are planning to return to Scotland, and short tacking will be part of the package, so it is worth considering. I'll have a look at how the genoa leads when it is rolled at about 95%, and see if it would work. I certainly don't want to buy another Jib if I can avoid it!

 

[Stemar]

If there's a problem with fitting a long enough track, could you move the track forward and sheet to further forward on the boom?

Of course, loads would be correspondingly higher, so boom, track and sheet(s) would have to be correspondingly meatier, the boom especially, so as it would then be carrying a bending load as well as the in column load of holding the shape in the sail

 

[alisdair4]

Stemar,

Yes, I could try that, I guess. I was hoping to get away without having to fit a boom, TBH. It needs a good hard measure with a couple of cups of common sense added!