Self steering reliability and fixing underway.

bumblefish

bumblefish

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I just read N Hill Azores account and was wondering if there was any information on the reliability of self steering gear? I am looking at buying either a Navik or a Sea Feather for my ELizabethan 30. Also if I was to attempt some basic repair work that involved drilling would I be best with a hand bit or is there a reliable battery powered or 12V chargeable electric drill around?
 
Yes but. Is that lady trying to blow up the other ladies life jacket on your symbol. Can't make it out. God knows I've tried. Its just not big enough ! ! (The bloody photo) !
 
To be fair, if I was a little more competent at 'DIY', I could have fixed the Navik at sea. Same with the disconnection problem. On the whole, it worked very well.

A good alternative seems to be the German Windpilot, which I had on a Trapper 500. Trouble was that the helm movement needed on the Trapper was rather more than the Windpilot could easily provide.

Nicholas Hill
 
I've got the windpilot. And I must say it is built like a masonry outhouse. I was knocked down twice last year in big seas. The only thing that hit the water and remained undamaged was the windpilot. She was knocked off course unfortunately and at first I thought she was not working when I came back up as the boat was wallowing as opposed to sailing at 135 degrees to the wind under bare poles. However I adjusted her back on course and off we went again. I personally believe my windpilot is indestructible [so far]. If you follow the instructions closely I find she moves the tiller quite sufficiently for nearly all situations. Of course in light airs there is rarely enough water flow to push teh pendulum up far enough to steer properly and she does cause the boat to waver over the sea a bit. But I'm not sure this is unique to the windpilot. As long as I can get the boat up to 2 knots water speed she seems to be ok. Major downside is the fact that there is no remote adjustment and you have to go back to the machine itself to make a course adjustment. [Roger Taylor has invented a device that he had retrofitted to his windpilot - he has a picture somewhere, I'm not sure if it is this forum or the Jester Yahoo forum]. I've thought about it but I'm just as happy to make the trip to the back of the cockpit to adjust it as long as I always clip on. Gives me something to do.
 
Here is a free book that compares a lot of different self steering systems written by Peter Forthmann who is the manufacturer of Windpilots. He is biased but he makes a very good argument for his system in the book. The free book is available here:
http://www.windpilot.de/Grafiken/pdf/bookeng.pdf
Careful pressing the link as it actually downloads the free book.
Peter Forthmann's website is here:
http://www.windpilot.de/
 
Bonjour
Andromeda has or had a Navik that failed during the last JC.
It had sailed four North Atlantic crossing before. The supper before the start Sherman explained me how stupid Plastimo was not to have been able to provide him a new on on time! A real novel.
It may be considered as a reliabilty test and a bad custumer service test.

Navik has been very much used on small single handed boat in France (mini's size).
The Navik has a very clever, paterned, concept : a fletner linked to the wind vane.
Plastimo doesn't seem very interested in the Navik (too small a market).

I don't have any fiability comparison and the Navik is a rather old concept.
Eric
 
[ QUOTE ]
Roger Taylor has invented a device that he had retrofitted to his windpilot - he has a picture somewhere, I'm not sure if it is this forum or the Jester Yahoo forum

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a couple of pictures on here . There may also be some on his own site (link on the Corribee website, right hand side of the page).
 
Hi Bumblefish

I did a big feature on the fitting and use of both of those windvanes in PBO, July 2006 pages 65-70.

David Rainsbury had used the Navik for several thousand miles around the UK, and fitted it himself to his Contessa 26. A fair bit of tweaking required for it to fit. He loved using it, but - as the article highlights - it has it short comings, and build quality and spares availability/cost was a main bug-bear.

I watched the Seafeather being fitted to a 34ft wooden sloop, with a raked transom - and the whole thing went very smoothly. I have tried the Seafeather on a junk-rin Kingfisher 22 in a force 3-4, and on this 34-footer in barely a 1-2.

The Sea feather is lovingly custom-built by one-man-band Paul Dolton in Devon, and he makes a real craft of it. It was particularly sensitive on a down-wind run with virtually no breeze over the vane - the point of sailing when most of them lose the plot.

Paul can make the Seafeather to exactly fit your boat, but you'll need to chop the off-the-shelf Navik around. He'll also fit it for you for a couple of hundred extra, which includes his mileage and a test sail to teach you how to get the best from it.

I'm afraid I can't profess to knowing how they work at sea in terms of reliability - I do know that the Seafeather is more robust, and has more built-in safety features ( remote tripping blade, companionway adjustment, variable blades etc) but is more expensive. The Navik is cheaper by several hundred, and very popular, but lacks some refinement.

As for drilling the hull, the job was done with a standard cordless drill, with a wrist band to stop it taking a dive. The whole sequence is in that issue.

If I had the money, I would fit a Seafeather tomorrow. Instead, I'm relying on a QEM bought from a boat jumble for £35. Suspect I may live to regret being a cheapskate...

Cheers

Jake
 
Good evening Jake, I read that article, not subscription but local newsagent delivery, I try to buy locally, then British and then European. I apply this to all off my 'shopping'. I like the idea of a 'one man band' with an interest in developing and enhancing a product for a fairly small market. The Sea Feather has been fitted to a few Elizabethans including at least one E30 and I will be probably asking for a quote shortly. Just as soon as the skiing holidays run out! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
This is quite an interesting question. Personally I'm not sure what to do. A while ago I aquired an old Atoms which seems to be a well designed product (I'm sure Eric could comment on it). It's based on the servo pendulum principle and used to be very popular with french sailors. Unfortunately production ended in the early nineties and my kit needs a rebuild. I guess it could be done using off the shelf parts like carburettor linkages etc.
The nice thing about the Atoms is that it's very lightweight and comes with a remote control line wich uses a worm gear on the vane section.

2248093990_3e35f29fb1_o.jpg


What got me thinking however is that my Benford 30 has a transom hung rudder which would easily lend itself to a trim tab.
Since these can be very effective when correctly designed and since my Atoms is in need of a rebuild anyway I'm playing with the idea of converting it to a trim tab. Instead of driving an auxiliary rudder and running lines to the tiller the windvane would directly work on the trim tab.
Peter Foehrman criticises the trim tab design of now being quite dated and outmoded by far superior products like his current Windpilot but to be honest that sounds like good marketing.

Comments appreciated!
 
Bonjour
I confirm that the "Atoms" is a good stuff that was very popular in France. You may find bit and parts on dedicated websites as "Sail the World" (STW is a french web site!!!). I could support you on the langage.

The main issue about the trim tab is the respond delay: the wind vane turns the trim that turns the rudder...

You have the same issue with the classical "Wind vane" the wind vane turns the watervane that rotates and turns the rudder.
The respond delay is an important issue on sensitive boat (as a figarOne or a mini). A wind vane would lead to a "drunken dolphin route".
With a steady boat with high heading stability (long keel for example) the boat will smooth the swinging and it will be OK.

The main interest of the trim-tab is that there are almost no working efforts on the mecanical parts. The required resistance is linked to the breaking on board waves splashing efforts.

An ATOMS wind vane connected to a tim tab would be overdimensionned, wich is not unpleasant.

An important issue is the hydrodynamic profile of the trim tab.

Very often the trims are only flat ironsheets. They need a big angle (between 5° and 10°) to start to create a lift. With an adapted profile with a big lift to angle ratio at small angles the systems would work much better and would become much more sensible. The trim profile should be in "clear" water behind (1 or 2 inches) the trealing edge vortex of the rudder.
But, it takes more time and money to choose and build a profile than to cut a stainless-steel sheet......

An alternative would be to prepare a trim system as a back up.
Eric

STW for sale
 
Bonjour
------
it (The NAVIK) has it short comings, and build quality and spares availability/cost was a main bug-bear
-------
I completly agree. It's a twenty years old concept with no improvement since.

The only point I would add is that, as the mecanical efforts are very small and as the waterwane (the only part supporting effort) is moving only on an horizontal axis it is relatively easy to repear it on board with bits and parts. A french navigator turned round the world on a 9m boat and almost rebuilt his Navik along his trip.
Eric
 
I am waiting for a SeaFeather to be delivered in the next few weeks (They are built to order). After much searching and worries about weight (it's going on a Vic 26) I checked out a couple of SeaFeather installations at my local marina and was very impressed by what I found so called Paul (a very nice man), dropped him some measurements and a couple of photos and the rig is in build even as I tripe. Will let you know how it goes when it arrives.
 
Atoms

2nd_apprentice said:
This is quite an interesting question. Personally I'm not sure what to do. A while ago I aquired an old Atoms which seems to be a well designed product (I'm sure Eric could comment on it). It's based on the servo pendulum principle and used to be very popular with french sailors. Unfortunately production ended in the early nineties and my kit needs a rebuild. I guess it could be done using off the shelf parts like carburettor linkages etc.
The nice thing about the Atoms is that it's very lightweight and comes with a remote control line wich uses a worm gear on the vane section.

2248093990_3e35f29fb1_o.jpg


What got me thinking however is that my Benford 30 has a transom hung rudder which would easily lend itself to a trim tab.
Since these can be very effective when correctly designed and since my Atoms is in need of a rebuild anyway I'm playing with the idea of converting it to a trim tab. Instead of driving an auxiliary rudder and running lines to the tiller the windvane would directly work on the trim tab.
Peter Foehrman criticises the trim tab design of now being quite dated and outmoded by far superior products like his current Windpilot but to be honest that sounds like good marketing.

Comments appreciated!
Click to expand...

Aloha.......I also have a old Atoms that has been off my boat for over twenty years and want to get it back into shape to sell. Did you get any where with the using the carburetor linkage?? I used on my sail from San Diego to Hawaii and really do not need it for local sailing.
Any info would much appreciated. Thanks.
 
The simplest wind vane ever?

Some years back, I took a broom handle and fitted a piece of plywood (a trim tab) to the bottom end and a larger piece of varnished cardboard (a vane) to the top end. The rudder and vane were fixed at right angles to each other.

I attached the broomhandle to the trailing end of my rudder using hinges.

I set sail on a reach and when I released the tiller, the self steering device took over and the boat continued on the same (general) heading unaided.

Now, OK, there's a snag. Zig zagging. But it does work, and it can be improved upon with bits of string or bungee cord, say.

I've been curious for years but never asked. What was on the back of Alexei Fedoruk's Fason?

Anybody know?
Cheers,
Robin.
 
soupjohnb said:
Aloha.......I also have a old Atoms that has been off my boat for over twenty years and want to get it back into shape to sell. Did you get any where with the using the carburetor linkage?? I used on my sail from San Diego to Hawaii and really do not need it for local sailing.
Any info would much appreciated. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry didn't see your post earlier! I had the linkage replaced but haven't actually used the Atoms since. Since I'm having some stainless jobs done at the moment it's probably as good a time as any to have a stern bracket made. Haven't worked out why the worm gear won't move the vane though. It seems to be seized in the shaft, well you can easily turn it by hand but too much friction for the remote. That's a bit annoying.
 
I'm just home from a Biscay crossing on an Invicta 26. The Seafeather worked a treat in both strong and light winds. Easy to set and easy to adjust. I have no experience of other makes of vane so can offer no comparison
 
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