Self Steering options?

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Toutvabien

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Have got a sabbatical arranged so we are taking our boat off for an extended cruise next year. Steadily been working our way through lengthy list of jobs and kit and feel like we are getting ready. The issue of self steering arrangements is perplexing me and I am finding it difficult to access advice that is based upon experience rather than a sales pitch.

The issue seems to be have two dimensions:

1) Wind vane,eg Monitor or Hydrovane against Autopilot.

2) What sort of Autopilot.

Our boat is a centre cockpit ketch, its displacement is around 16000lb and 11.5 metres loa. The wheel steering is hydraulic and we currently have a Raymarine 3000 belt drive autopilot that is fine in light winds or when motoring, but it is not up to the job when things get a bit livelier. I would want something much more robust if we are to confidently use it for two or three weeks continuously.

The ARC gear survey seems to suggest that folk are moving away from windvane steering towards autopilots, presumably as they have become more reliable, and less amp hungry. My current notion is to go for an inboard autopilot, with rudder sensor, such as the Raymarine 6000 system where we would have a pump contolling the rudder, and not have a wind system at all. A dealer suggested today that we would be okay with a pilot fixed to the wheel, such as the Raymarine S1.

Could anybody with experience of this issue help me to take the arguement on to the next stage??

ManyThanks,

Paul.
 
My preference would always be for a wind vane self steering. If you decide on an electronic system , you are relying on two things; your ability to to recharge your battery, and the reliability of the electronics. Both of these things are open to question. Many of the famous names who do record breaking passages have a locker full of spare autopilots, and need them. A wind vane is far more reliable.
How far do you plan to go on your cruise? If you don´t plan to cross an ocean, then you can please yourself, and buy a new autopilot,or alternator, now and then. but there are no shops at 25N by 25W.
 
Centre cockpit is a big problem for wind autopilots, control cords become both flaccid and complex.

I'd suggest an electric autopilot with actuator direct onto rudder quadrant.

Hydraulic ones are far more effective than electro-linear, but power-hungry and about 50% more in price.

Wheel-drum-actuated pilots, as you indicate, are Heath Robinson to the extreme and unfit for serious use.

Look at Simrad/Robertson for your benchmark - Raymarine are also-rans.
 
I use a windvane (Navic) on a centre cockpit cutter of similar displacement but slightly shorter and for offshore work wouldent be without it but I also have an autohelm 4000wp. The power and accuracy of the vane gear just does not compare to electric units plus the rougher it gets the better it works. Also when at sea your course is not that critical but you do want the boat to keep sailing efficiently. Steering to wind does this significantly better as although the may woder of the compass heading the sails will continue to set spot on keeping her driving. you can decide to do course adjustments every so often or when you get so many degrees off course. In a typical gusty NW this can make a good half kn difference in speed and also make sailing more relaxed. The other plus side is that although reliable windvanes can go wrong (mine recently jammed due to wear on the bushes) they are fixable with a few spares and a spanner - electrics are not.

The plusses for the electric pilot is that it works in calms, stears a compass course and is very quick and easy to set but as the sea gets up it gets less good and uses more juice.

My conclusion is that they are not only both good but that each does well what the other does badly so having both is the perfect solution and give you the ideal backup. If the 3000 is working well for coastal cruising no reason not to stick with it as all the heavy work will be done by the vane gear.

Agree with the comments about running tiller lines to a centre cocpit. In general the shorter and more direct the lines are the better it works. I have also found that high tech, low stretch line (eg spectra) make a difference as does ensuring any blocks etc are good heavy and solidly anchored. If you want to get a feel of how solid try dipping an ore over the side when underway and twisting it slightly... But clip on first!

Fortunatly although the main steering is by wheel in the cockpit I have a transom hung rudder and was able to conect the wind gear to the emergency tiller mounted on the rudder stock. Not only does this make a very neet mount it has the added bonus of completly bypassing the wheet set up so if that fails the pilot still works. Might be worth looking at the emergency tiller arrangement, if this is a tiller plugged in from on aft deck rather than in the aft cabin you might be able to do something similar.

If not there are some good auxillary rdder systems out there which are completly self contained. They tend to be made for bigger boats so are a bit heavy but sill cheaper than a good inboard electric unit plus have the advantage of giving you a completly seperate emergency steering arrangement which unless you have a fully supported rudder on the back if a solid keel is a deffinate plus
 
I used to use a Navik on our previous boat and it was great on longer passages. I cannot see a Navik being up to the job on Jigsaw though.

If I were to go for a windvane I think that it would be an auxilary rudder type, so as to negate the need for lots of lines into the cockpit, although the idea of using the emergency steering tiller, which in our case is mounted just astern of the mizzen, is an interesting idea that I had not thought of.
 
Till this summer I have Raymarine ST 4000+ with 3000 drive. It worked well in the unwindy conditions. Now I have change it for ST 6002+ with linear drive type 1 and it works well in stormy condition of 45kts in my boats back. Big difference !
 
Other than central cockpit we have a similar craft to you, about the same length and slightly heavier.

The ST4000 is too light for any serious work but perfectly adequate for motoring in calms. We now have ST6000 which has kept its course in winds upto F8 following and f7 on the nose.

We also have a Monitor windvane which has kept course in similar conditions. I'm not sure that I agree about the control lines problem. If you use Dyneema or equivalent which is what Scanmar, the people who make Monitor recommend, then you'll have no probs.

If I had to choose one, I'd probably go for the ST6000 as this gives you course control when motoring.
 
Agree with many of the sentiments here, but as far as I know, you CANNOT use a wind vane on hydraulic steering because of hydraulic slip. Some wind vane manufacturers may beg to differ, but I'd suggest you ask them for a reference where one of their products is fitted to a hydraulic steering.
 
My experience has been with Autohelm ST6000 drives both from 1990 vintage and still working well (no horrible noises) to 2003. I carried spares but it steered most of the 10,000 miles on the last trip, and also saved a Sweden when the steering broke between quadrant and wheel. Just get a towed generator for long passages.
Be wary of jelly stings on the rope and always use gloves.
 
Assuming you are going to do some lengthy off shore passages like the transatlantic then you actually need both a autopilot and wind self steering gear.

I went round the world on my Hydrovane - brilliant bit of engineering. As the wind gets stronger the Hydrovane behaves better and better. It is very reliable and works perfectly in a centre cockpit boat which is what mine was. - one bit of string to adjust the angle of the wind vane leads back to the cockpit and the rudder is powerful enough to steer the boat should the main rudder break - fail.

The conditions the Hydrovane will not work are when you are motor sailing, motoring or when the sails are not up or when there is no wind at all and you would like to keep facing the right direction... Then you must use a Autopilot. It is possible to fit a push pull inexpensive autopilot onto the hydrovane but with a centre cockpit boat it is not too practical as you would have to constantly make trips to the stern to adjust it.

Raymarine are advertising a new autopilot that works with hydraulic steering. I am thinking of installing one myself.

The fact that the large ARC boats almost exclusively use autopilots is because they are 'heavily' crewed. If and more likely when an electric autopilot breaks down it is not a major problem for boats that have several helmsmen/women to call on to guide the boat. In a small cruising yacht with only 2 on board it is a major and very fatigueing problem!!!

Michael
 
From my experience autopilots are not getting less amp hungry. The issue is that boats have bigger and bigger alternators and battery systems. The amps are determined by how well the control system keeps it on course. Just lowering the accuracy will save a lot of amps. Having a tiny autopilot also helps with amp loads, but then most are not fit for service.

When selecting an autopilot, for ocean work, make sure it has a pressure relief system. When being tossed around and hit by waves the forces can be large. This can be as simple as a large drive belt like the 3000 that had a good stretch. It could be a slipping clutch system on the output of a gearbox to save the gears. In the case of hydraulic then a bypass "over pressure" valve helps. Autopilots should not fail if the rudder is suddenly forced around for whatever reason. Most of the autopilots I have mended have no such device.

As for the electrics. The LCD panel/connections are the first to fail. The electronic power part is next likely. Finally there are lighting strikes that will take the rest out. I carry a complete set of electrics and have fitted them temporarily to 2 other yachts in emergencies, not counting all the ones I have been able to mend.

As for reliability most of the big boats always have 2 independent autopilots fitted. Mending an autopilot at sea is not a good idea. Especially if it is the actuator connected to a moving quadrant! Even testing a new electronics can be interesting.

I agree with the problem about centre cockpits and control lines and would go as far as saying that familiarity and use of a wind steering system is inversely proportional to the annoyance of setting them up. If your emergency rudder post is brought to the deck then fixing a little tiller is a good way around having lines to the wheel. Having a completely separate rudder helps.

I use a Hydrovane, a hydraulic ram for the autopilot and a direct drive from the wheel.

I only assume you are thinking of Oceans because of the reference to the ARC... Coastal civilization sailing requires less redundancy.
 
Entirely agree with MichaelE's post:
- you need both, vane for wind days, autopilot for when you have to motor. When only one person is on watch we also use the autopilot to drive the boat when we set the vane up.
- The ARC survey is misleading <10% of ARC boats are short handed cruising boats.
- Hydrovane is the way to go for centre cockpit boats (we have a Hydrovane and centre cockpit). Just has the wind angle line led in a straight line to the cockpit. Can act as an auxiliary rudder.
- Don't buy an autopilot that fits behind the wheel (e.g. Simrad) because you have to take the wheel off to do any maintenance. Obviously if you have a wind vane then that can steer but I don't like taking the wheel off at sea. If you don't have a wind vane then...
- If you do buy an autopilot buy one at least one size bigger than that spec'd for the boat.

On reflection you can probably stay with your current autopilot (you will only use it in very light/no airs and just buy a windvane).
 
Yes Neil, we are thinking of at least two ocean passages during our trip, probably Canaries to Carib. and back via the Azores.

With a ketch rigged centre cockpit yacht the Hydrovane, or similar, was what came to mind for the windvane option. The arguements about having a spare rudder were obviously convincing to somebosy who carries a spare mast!!

The discussion so far is very helpful and has re-enforced some of the ponts that others have raised with me.
 
No one has mentioned the noise issue-do you really want the wurring and click clicking at night from the a/pilot-unless it is a super expensive super smooth jobby) plus the diesel noise and fumes(esp going downwind) just to top up the soddin batteries?
Hydrovane for me every time thanks! (Plus a cheapy autopilot for motoring etc).KISS principle
Also you have a steadier boat cos the main rudder is now a trim tab locked at such an angle as to minimise the ammount of work done by the vane gearAND in a sudden emergency the main rudder is big enough to override the vane and perform quick collision avoidance etc..
 
Snap! We have two as well.

Actually we have at least 2 of everything except hulls.

Hydrovane would be easy to fit to yours but there will be issues with the mizzen. I would do some measurements to see if the vane in its tilted position and pointing backwards will clear the mizzen boom.

Otherwise it is a case of rigging a method to scandalise the mizzen or have a secure way to remove the vane. If you have to remove the vane before a tack then I suggest 2 sheets on the mizzen, one from either side. Or it could get a tad expensive.

As for the main rudder overpowering the vane, that does not always work. Our main rudder center (because of the angle) is below the base of the mizzen. The Hydovane is off the transom and therefore has a greater leaverage. With the hydrovane rudder in place and locked the directional stability of the boat is a lot higher even though she is already a long keel.

I would also rig a small tiller and a block so that I could lock the the hydrovane rudder from the steering position, until such time as you could get back to put the pin in.
 
Personally I just threw my Autohelm away (literally!) after it broke for the fourth time in a row shortly after being repaired each time. Instead I've been relying on my Windpilot windvane, and that has been excellent.

There are times when I miss the Autopilot ie. obviously when motoring, also entering port singlehanded when you don't want the boat changing course unexpectdly responding to a wind puff from a new direction, also it was useful for using the spinnaker when singlehanded. So I'll probably buy a replacement next year once I've calmed down from the unreliability of the previous one. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

But if it were a choice between one or the other, it would definitely, definitely, definitely be the windvane.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hydrovane would be easy to fit to yours but there will be issues with the mizzen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our mizzen overhangs the windvane, we keep a preventer on the mizzen at all times. It's possible to scandalise the sail on a tack but with three sails to manage there is so much to do we find it easier to remove the vane's 'sail'. Of course you don't tack much on ocean passages.

If we're doing a short passage (say 100 NM) and we know we're going to have to tack a lot we just don't use the mizzen. It doesn't affect performance too much and, after all, cruising is all about making life easy rather than top speed.
 
We don't use the main much. The mizzen is a significant one and the mizzen stay sail is far better down wind than the main. Up wind the mizzen allows us to keep the foresail unreefed for longer as the heeling is less but the turning moment is better.

So the main only comes out going to windward in light airs. Means either of us can sail single handed and never leave the cockpit.

Quality of life is so important, but 5% fall in speed could mean 1 more day at sea for the Atlantic.
 
We have a Monitor wind vane, which we love for offshore sailing. That plus the radar ,set with alarm, pretty much sailed us on their own across the Atlantic. It made what could have been very hard work for the two of us much pleasanter! We also have two autopilots, both Autohelm 7000. One is electric and the other hydraulic. We use these when close to shore, when the light and fickle winds are more difficult for the monitor. We have considered, in the past, that we are 'over ' equiped but on the atlantic crossing after an electric storm took out BOTH autopilots and the paddle on the monitor broke as well!! we were pleased that we were carrying a complete set of spares!!
I believe that the most valuable kit we carry on board for long distance cruising is the Monitor and the radar.
 
Navik

Surprisingly powerful, if you've got any way on - it's greatest drawback is its fragility.

Never ever use a windpilot when there's any chance of the boat surfing.
I terrified myself and the skipper of the Ile de Sein hydrofoil when I got a lift entering the Iroise from le Four channel when the device went mad and we charged each other at a combined speed of about 40 knots (well I charged him).

The result is I only use the navik offshore, and I've had it working off the wind in up to 6, above that we start to surf.

It's quite useless in anything under about 8 knots of wind.
Some suggest using a lightweight tillerpilot with a servo-pendulum gear when there's insufficient wind to get the wind vane to work. I've never tried it.

Without disagreeing with anything Rola Voya has said, an electric pilot is far more useful as well as cheaper than a vane steering gear.
IMHO the marketing folk have had an undue influence on the claims made for electric steering gear and I'd always advise going for one well in excess of the boats' demands and their recommendation.
The biggest drawback is the power consumption, which rises dramatically (from a mean of 0.8 amps to 3.5 amps) when the seastate gets up. Having either a heuristic system or one which allows coarsening yaw-response makes an enormous difference to this consumption.

If I was going for one or the other I'd choose the electric pilot, but the ideal answer is to have both, and I sail about 4.5K a year single-handed.
 
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