Seeking advice for buying a decent "budget" cruising catamaran

[NinaT]

We are a Danish couple with +25 years sailing experience with our lovely monohull. However it's an old "racing machine" and we have soon reached an age were we cannot handle it anymore (no furling genoa, no electrical anchor winch, no sprayhood or real "seatings" in the cockpit etc etc). We are therefore looking for a catamaran with these features, and hopefully also a bit more room for a least part-time live-aboard. We are not planning to cross the Atlantique, and we understand that sailing properties of the old cruising catamarans cannot be compared to our present boat - and that is perfectly ok. But of course we are looking for a safe boat (however, no need for water maker etc). We will mainly be only two persons on board (with occasional guests), so an owners version setup with a single toilet will be perfect. We have looked at different cats, and like the Prouts in many ways. The Snowgoose 37 for instance looks really nice being a relatively small boat with the narrow beam, yet with good indoor accomondation room. But the low headroom in the saloon worries a bit ! (my husband is 187 cm tall). Also, we like the idea of a two engine setup for reduncancy and harbour manuevering reasons, but have also heard that the the turnable single leg engine on some of the Prouts work fine. We have also looked at a Solaris quit similar to the Snowgoose. We have a feeling that some of the British designs are more relevant for sailing in Scandinavia compared to the French designs with huge outdoor cockpits but rather small indoor saloons. Our budget is at maximum 180.000euro/150.000 pounds (but that has to include the 25% VAT we need to pay if we buy in UK). Ideally, we find a (far) cheaper boat that potentially needs some work - we are quit experienced with al sorts of boat work. The problem would then of course be to have the boat transported safely to Denmark.
Any input on pros/cons on different cats would be much appreciated as well as suggestion on where to search for these.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

If you buy one in the UK to take to the EU not only will you have to pay VAT you will also need to get it brought up to current EU RCD standard & have it certified. This will almost certainly mean new engines as a minimum, and may be impossible for an old Prout. If you want to use it in the EU, buy it in the EU. Brexit has almost completely killed sales of boats between the UK & the EU. It isn't worth the cost & bother.

 

[cherod]

We are a Danish couple with +25 years sailing experience with our lovely monohull. However it's an old "racing machine" and we have soon reached an age were we cannot handle it anymore (no furling genoa, no electrical anchor winch, no sprayhood or real "seatings" in the cockpit etc etc). We are therefore looking for a catamaran with these features, and hopefully also a bit more room for a least part-time live-aboard. We are not planning to cross the Atlantique, and we understand that sailing properties of the old cruising catamarans cannot be compared to our present boat - and that is perfectly ok. But of course we are looking for a safe boat (however, no need for water maker etc). We will mainly be only two persons on board (with occasional guests), so an owners version setup with a single toilet will be perfect. We have looked at different cats, and like the Prouts in many ways. The Snowgoose 37 for instance looks really nice being a relatively small boat with the narrow beam, yet with good indoor accomondation room. But the low headroom in the saloon worries a bit ! (my husband is 187 cm tall). Also, we like the idea of a two engine setup for reduncancy and harbour manuevering reasons, but have also heard that the the turnable single leg engine on some of the Prouts work fine. We have also looked at a Solaris quit similar to the Snowgoose. We have a feeling that some of the British designs are more relevant for sailing in Scandinavia compared to the French designs with huge outdoor cockpits but rather small indoor saloons. Our budget is at maximum 180.000euro/150.000 pounds (but that has to include the 25% VAT we need to pay if we buy in UK). Ideally, we find a (far) cheaper boat that potentially needs some work - we are quit experienced with al sorts of boat work. The problem would then of course be to have the boat transported safely to Denmark.
Any input on pros/cons on different cats would be much appreciated as well as suggestion on where to search for these.

If you are in anyway used to a performance boat then you will be suicidal within the day of purchasing any Prouts , Solaris or anything else of that style . Most of the production boats are similar . There are boats on the market which have performance / fun and are comfortable and safe .2 which come to mind are Outramer and beneteau blue 2 , the outremer is a little bit bigger , has more performance , more room but bit more to handle , and is bit more expensive . Conveniently there is a rather nice Blue 2 for sale on Denmark ( google is your friend ) just now which is actually below your stated budget , , an Outremer is prob 110k£+ for a decent one . These boats are a fair age now but can still be in very good condition . My own blue 2 is rock solid ( built in the period of thick fibreglass ) while still being light , ( 3 ton iirc ) i maybe a bit biased but for me it is the bargain of the sea . Or look for Outremer 38

 

[Stemar]

For a bit of performance, how about a Dazcat?

 

[boatmike]

Entirely subjective. You will rarely get unbiased opinions regarding catamarans but you have asked about Snowgoose 37 in particular. I have had various boats, monohulls and multihulls and in fact built and owned a 37 myself. to try and give an unbiased opinion is difficult but here goes.
1. On the performance side they are safe and easy to sail single handed. they will perform very well downwind and with or without a spinnaker will match most monohulls and outpace many. I have often had the 37 over 12 knots downwind but that's about as fast as you will go. I used a rule of achieving 50% of wind speed in anything up to that. To windward they are not good, frankly most cats are not unless you get a high performance jobbie with centreboards which I guess from your post you are not looking for. There are other cruising cats that will perform better to windward than Prouts but frankly nobody buys a cat for sparkling performance to windward and there is not a great deal in it. Tacking through the wind is pretty horrible!
2. With the solid foredeck slamming in any sort of sea is common but its not a problem. Most cats will " hobbyhorse" a bit but the absence of roll is a great compensating factor. Prouts have gone across oceans with ease and are super tradewind sailboats with the ability to hold a course with ease in most conditions. If in really extreme conditions streaming a sea anchor is easy. I once rode out a hurricane in the southern Atlantic in mine with a sea anchor out and a bottle of single malt!! While I had crew it was just my wife and I and we just shut all hatches and rode it out.....
There are indeed other cats that will perform better, but very few that are safer.
3. Don't concern yourself with bridgedeck clearance. The clearance in both hulls is enormous and that's where most work is done. Mostly the bridgedeck is where you sit or sleep.
4. Yes twin diesels are preferable for manoeuvring and I have seen them built with anything up to 25 HP x2 which will also give you motor sailing performance to windward but don't forget the penalty of extra weight. Cats don't like to be overloaded and although one of Prouts advantages is load bearing hull shape if you overdo it they sill sail like a pudding.
Summing up they are wonderful livaboard boats and very safe at sea. Easy to sail single handed and delightful downwind. If ultimate performance is important though there are others to choose from but most are much more money. On a modest budget they are hard to beat. That's why they are one of the most successful production cats ever built. Hope this helps. Any other questions you may have don't hesitate to PM me

 

[cherod]

For a bit of performance, how about a Dazcat?

Dazcstd are great , but expensive

 

[cherod]

There are also older Pajots , some ex charter some not which are also within your budget , not exactly exhilarating sailing performance but prob acceptable ,

 

[Tranona]

If you buy one in the UK to take to the EU not only will you have to pay VAT you will also need to get it brought up to current EU RCD standard & have it certified. This will almost certainly mean new engines as a minimum, and may be impossible for an old Prout. If you want to use it in the EU, buy it in the EU. Brexit has almost completely killed sales of boats between the UK & the EU. It isn't worth the cost & bother.

I don't think that is the case in the EU as they seem to have retained the pre 1998 EEA exemption - but if course best to confirm with local customs before committing

 

[Trident]

There is a nice looking Prout 37 for sale in Mallorca (EU paid) at a 1/4 of your budget - take a look at the Prout Owners facebook page where its noted for sale. I think there are 3 or 4 more there for sale right now too and lots of experienced owners

I noted the down side of twin engines in your other post . The downside of the Silette leg is that many of the parts are no longer being made so you need to be sure to find a good condition one or it may become redundant .

 

[dunedin]

Though generally not a practical / viable option (yet), I wonder if twin electric drives could be considered if seeking to re-engine a Prout cat to change from single to twin drives? The drives would be quite light weight so would avoid the “weight in the stern” issue raised above. And perhaps batteries could be positioned slightly further forward - albeit not too far due to cable sizes needed.
But undoubtedly buying a different type of cat already equipped with twin diesels in good condition would be much cheaper and simpler (engine wise).

 

[Stemar]

I think I'd want a cat with some serious sailing performance before I fitted electric power, because you're never going to have the range of diesel, but what would you lose from that performance with the weight of enough batteries - even lithium?

 

[cherod]

Though generally not a practical / viable option (yet), I wonder if twin electric drives could be considered if seeking to re-engine a Prout cat to change from single to twin drives? The drives would be quite light weight so would avoid the “weight in the stern” issue raised above. And perhaps batteries could be positioned slightly further forward - albeit not too far due to cable sizes needed.
But undoubtedly buying a different type of cat already equipped with twin diesels in good condition would be much cheaper and simpler (engine wise).

There was recently ( maybe still ) a very nice Beneteau Blue Two for sale maybe Germany / Denmark / Sw area with what seems like a very professional twin electric engine conversion , the whole boat looked very well kept , ( iirc ) asking price @ 90k£ . Of course just another advantage of the blue two over some other “ favoured mules “ is that the engines are located centrally in the hulls giving best weight distribution .

 

[boatmike]

There is a nice looking Prout 37 for sale in Mallorca (EU paid) at a 1/4 of your budget - take a look at the Prout Owners facebook page where its noted for sale. I think there are 3 or 4 more there for sale right now too and lots of experienced owners

I noted the down side of twin engines in your other post . The downside of the Silette leg is that many of the parts are no longer being made so you need to be sure to find a good condition one or it may become redundant .

For clarity, My post was not meant to be an indication that I preferred single engines to twin. I don't. The twin engine option is vastly preferable. You only need a maximum of 18-20HP per side to get good cruising speed however. most single engines are only 25HP maximum so 2 - 15HP engines are more than sufficient. Bigger engines will drive the boat along a bit faster of course but this will be at the expense of weight. Only go for bigger if you are effectively trying to turn it into a motor sailor with the normal compromise to sailing performance that this implies. I agree about the Silette leg spares situation and would add that they are a very "agricultural" bit of kit and noisy too!

 

[Trident]

For clarity, My post was not meant to be an indication that I preferred single engines to twin. I don't. The twin engine option is vastly preferable. You only need a maximum of 18-20HP per side to get good cruising speed however. most single engines are only 25HP maximum so 2 - 15HP engines are more than sufficient. Bigger engines will drive the boat along a bit faster of course but this will be at the expense of weight. Only go for bigger if you are effectively trying to turn it into a motor sailor with the normal compromise to sailing performance that this implies. I agree about the Silette leg spares situation and would add that they are a very "agricultural" bit of kit and noisy too!

Indeed - there is also a tendency to over engine - all the 37 Elites I have seen have a pair of 3GM30s - I have a 50 foot Quasar, bigger and a bit heavier (not that much as I shaved 2 tons off it in the rebuild) but only have 2X 3YM20s which are more than adequate and 30kg a side lighter than the 30s

 

[cherod]

For clarity, My post was not meant to be an indication that I preferred single engines to twin. I don't. The twin engine option is vastly preferable. You only need a maximum of 18-20HP per side to get good cruising speed however. most single engines are only 25HP maximum so 2 - 15HP engines are more than sufficient. Bigger engines will drive the boat along a bit faster of course but this will be at the expense of weight. Only go for bigger if you are effectively trying to turn it into a motor sailor with the normal compromise to sailing performance that this implies. I agree about the Silette leg spares situation and would add that they are a very "agricultural" bit of kit and noisy too!

I always thot that Prouts were motor sailors

 

[NinaT]

There are also older Pajots , some ex charter some not which are also within your budget , not exactly exhilarating sailing performance but prob acceptable ,

do you have any specific models in mind? We have looked at both a Tobago and an Antigua. Any thoughts about these?

 

[pessimist]

Having gone down much the same route a year or two ago - we sold our much loved ocean going mono and moved to a cat for much the same reasons as the o.p. I though I'd add my observations. We originally thought that a Prout would fit the bill but had real problems finding one in sensible condition and were finally disappointed by one which failed it's survey comprehensively. The surveyor suggested we look at Solaris which we had previously ignored and we finished up buying one. I wold not be against buying a Prout in the right condition as Ive always had a soft spot for them.
When we were searching we spoke to the owner of the 37 in Mallorca mentioned by Trident and it seemed a well cared for boat - just in thw wrong place.
I'd not like to claim that either Prout or Solaris are the better boat - both have pros and cons. We have put together a web site - here which attempts to provide an objective assessment of the two brands which you may find helpful. Please bear in mind that we own a Solaris, so may be unconsciously biased. ;-)

 

[cherod]

( from my knowledge ) the Antugua and the Tobago are the two that come to mind , there is also the Fidji but it is a bit bigger at 39 ‘ and a bit more expensive . This is a boat which i was interested in when i was looking but was just a bit out of my budget at the time , prices have come down a bit as they are now 7 yrs older . I have no experience of their structural integrity or their durability , delaminating , osmosis , cracking etc although have not seen any bad reports ( as per Lagoon etc ) , now being a bit long on the tooth this will prob depend on individual models , some looked after, or not , better than others , but on the face of it are decent boats . Both have twin inboards , both have “ galley up “ which is a game changer in a cat , both have similar ample cabin , cockpit and fore deck space , decent berth / cabin toilet etc , plenty electronic gizmos , comprehensive deck / rigging fittings , due to the desire to have internal volume the hulls are a bit on the big side which compromises the performance , both seem to have decent bridgedeck clearance tho i can not vouch for that ( all cruising cats slam to some extent ) . I can not speak for speed , heavy weather ability or general performance . Although i have been on a few i have not sailed on nor have extended experience of them ( so maybe others more experienced will be along to give some opinions ) but seemed like comfortable able boats , the individual owners were well happy with them ( tho maybe a bit biased .) Personally i prefer the smaller , Tobago , as i feel it is big enough for my comforts and handling ability . There are a few around for sale , one in Italy and one in Denmatk currently . ( the one in the photo is in US ) , and at asking prices from 80 - 100+ £ , is well within your stated budget . ( this is a different generation and class to the Prout / Solaris / etc type of boat , you pays your monies you makes your choice ) ps . Sor the pics i have are“ too large “ to print but google is your friend . There are of course others , eg , Woods ( good reputation tho bit boxy ( ugly ) in my opinion , Outreemer which of course is in a class of its own for that budget and the 38 is well worth a look if you feel you can manage ( handle that size ) .

 

[Tranona]

Might be worth looking at an FP Athena. Fond memories of chartering one from Athens. Rather spartan in a French kind of way, Example here uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2003-fountaine-pajot-athena-38-9447128/

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Here’s my 2p worth. It’ll sail very well indeed, and is large enough not to restrict cruising, though it’s not really a liveaboard.
1987 WOODS BANSHEE 35 - For Sale | Multihull World