Second hand market must be DIRE

Ravi said:
I guess, I must just have a different psychology because, if I could bring myself to haggle to what I considered a realistic price, I would just feel that the guy had been trying to rip me off.
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I much prefer a straightforward "this is the price, take it or leave it" approach, I am one of eBay's buy-it-nowers.
 
dilly said:
ht dont think this boat cost this price new but some one think itw worth the asking price http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1986/Moody-346-2661939/United-Kingdom#.UpSmVYFP
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She looks reasonably tidy but with a 25 year old engine, 10 year old sails, no AIS or radar and manual windlass, not exactly top spec. £55K for a 27 year old 34 footer seems .... errrr... optimistic.

Could be one of those situations where 'the other half' has insisted that the boat is put up for sale! :rolleyes:
 
Ravi and Jumbleduck,

I think your approaches are fair; even with fairly large amounts of money involved ( and being half Scottish ) I find negotiating embarassing, remember Monty Python " this bloke won't 'aggle ! "

I am certainly no boat broker, but I offer members of the Anderson owners association a free ad' on the website if they are selling; I always say ' give me as many good recent photo's and all the inventory you can '.

I once accompanied a keen buyer to Plymouth to see a boat, to find all the photos must have been taken a decade earlier, no maintainance whatsoever had gone on in the meantime and she was a total shed !

The message comes across very clearly on this forum; have a clean, well presented boat and supply all the inventory and info' possible - a well equipped A22 recently went for buttons, I had asked the owner for photo's but for whatever reason they didn't turn up - while that boat went for a low price, better presented but arguably less well set up boats went for several times more.
 
I do hope boat prices don't go the same was as car prices that would be a big shame and with the costs of keeping a boat going up and up would kill it for most people .
 
Ravi said:
Leaving aside the psychology, it doesn't change the fact that these boats are sitting unsold and costing the sellers £££s in marina fees. As I say, I have been watching the market and the boats that are listed at realistic prices DO sell. It is the boats with inflated prices that hang around.

This is definitely what I have seen based on spending far too much time trawling Europe for the 'right boat' over the last few years. OK - here is some hard evidence.

If you look at this page, you will see that the boats with the two lowest prices are 'under offer'. The seven boats with the higher prices are unsold.
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...earchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsUK&Ntt=hanse+301

This is typical of what I see so maybe I am not the only one who thinks like this.
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This observation is so appropriate as I am involved in the process of completing purchase of one of those boats nominated as sale agreed.

Firstly I only became interested in one of the boats when the Broker and the Owner decided to reduce the asking price to something realistic.
It was previously advertised well beyond my realistic budget.

In the process of purchasing I was able to see the reasons for price reduction and did not expect to make a silly offer much less than the new asking price.
The owner has also had to remain flexible with the final agreed price adjusted to reflect some issues found on survey.

I also looked at a considerable number of alternative boats which were priced similarly or significantly higher, most were very badly presented in comparison.
 
TSB240 said:
This observation is so appropriate as I am involved in the process of completing purchase of one of those boats nominated as sale agreed.

Firstly I only became interested in one of the boats when the Broker and the Owner decided to reduce the asking price to something realistic.
It was previously advertised well beyond my realistic budget.

In the process of purchasing I was able to see the reasons for price reduction and did not expect to make a silly offer much less than the new asking price.
The owner has also had to remain flexible with the final agreed price adjusted to reflect some issues found on survey.

I also looked at a considerable number of alternative boats which were priced similarly or significantly higher, most were very badly presented in comparison.
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Going by that....... am I right in thinking you can pick up a Hanse 301 for under 20k?
If so, I will adjust my search to incude a few in the 20 - 25k bracket. My self-imposed limit was around 15K but had always thought the Hanse 301 or 292 (very similar?) were all well over the 20k mark. They do look like good sea boats too.

This is a very interesting thread.
I am looking for a boat probably in Ireland, (north or south) so my choices are a little bit restricted compared to the size of the UK. Any forumites from S. Ireland here?
Its just that some prices do compare very favourably with the rest of the UK and was wondering if the Eire economy is the culprit?
 
TSB240 said:
NO!
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Ha ha..

Plenty of people are happy to talk down prices and make low offers - but once the asset is acquired then the mindset changes!

The boat - some would say magically - transforms from a neglected heap in a boatyard which (with sharp intake of breath) 'might need a new engine soon' into a gleaming example of her kind with a 'recently serviced engine'!

Extensive works are undertaken which massively add value to the boat. These include installing a new chart plotter and waving a deck brush in the vague direction of some dirt.

The boat may then be enjoyed with pride, but if the time comes to sell it is going to achieve a proper price!

Woe betide any chancer or timewaster making cheeky offers after all the money I put into this boat!!
 
I have had a fair few dealings with owners in Ireland, North & South; I think rather than the economy itself it's the geography which leads to lower prices, delivery trips by sea or road are an expensive tiresome PITA and chandleries are a bit scarce too.
 
bernie_ni said:
I am looking for a boat probably in Ireland, (north or south) so my choices are a little bit restricted compared to the size of the UK. Any forumites from S. Ireland here?
Its just that some prices do compare very favourably with the rest of the UK and was wondering if the Eire economy is the culprit?
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I bought a boat recently in S. Ireland after a lot of looking.
Similiar to elsewhere it would appear that well maintained boats realistically priced do sell.
A lot of others just stay listed, especially if they appear unused.

Would something like this Bene First 32S5 interest you?
http://www.apolloduck.com/advert.phtml?id=332939

Or this Trapper, looks well maintained
http://www.apolloduck.com/advert.phtml?id=332728
 
Apologies if this is Apples and Oranges but I have recently attended a few Classic Car Auctions.

It is impressive how close to the 'guide price' the Auctioneer achieves. This applies for sales of anything from £2k to £100k in my observations.

Very few seem to be 'bargains', if there is any variance it is more likely to be in excess of the 'guide price'.

Like boats, Classic Cars are all individual, all different. Some are perfect, some are dogs.

How does the Auction House manage to get it right just about every time and how do they persuade Vendors that their 'guide price' is correct?

Perhaps Brokers should take a leaf out of their book.
 
Classic cars are just that, the same will apply to 'classic boats'

For regular production boats however there is no scarcity value, no particular reason to differentiate one from the other, other than age, condition, location etc.

All that aside, the reason that process works for classic cars is because they have a scarcity value, they are collectors items and the demand is higher then the supply, hence they can actually appreciate.

A boat is a depreciating asset, so that approach doesn't work.
 
chinita said:
Apologies if this is Apples and Oranges but I have recently attended a few Classic Car Auctions.

How does the Auction House manage to get it right just about every time and how do they persuade Vendors that their 'guide price' is correct?
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As you say, apples and oranges.

Classic cars are a very different asset class. Like art, fine wines, diamonds, precious metals, agricultural land etc, money is simply pouring into these assets as a means of wealth protection. All are fairly easy to look after with minimal costs attached. The auction house can pretty much state any reserve/guide price and it will be met.

A boat, on the other hand, is closer to the run of the mill car market with high running costs and big depreciation.
 
bernie_ni said:
This is a very interesting thread.
I am looking for a boat probably in Ireland, (north or south) so my choices are a little bit restricted compared to the size of the UK. Any forumites from S. Ireland here?
Its just that some prices do compare very favourably with the rest of the UK and was wondering if the Eire economy is the culprit?
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I am down south. I think asking prices down here are often unrealistic, however in my experience people are more negotiable than in the UK, so don't necessarily be put off by asking prices. Also buying in euros is advantageous with the Stg/Euro rates as they have been recently. In answer to your question about the economy, yes its definitely a factor with many boat owners simply unable to afford the running and maintenance costs associated with boat ownership.
 
Broker's are regularly slated for unrealistic asking prices and this thread is an example.

I can assure you that broker's would dearly love to list boats at market value and sell them quickly. However, the broker inevitably bows to the owner's desire to initially try a higher asking price. Then the the boat sits on brokerage, has it's price reduced several times until it eventually sells. Generally, the time a boat sits on brokerage is a function of it's rate of natural depreciation vs rate of price reductions. The greater the differential, the faster the boat sells.

Many boats I see on brokerage have a higher rate of depreciation than the reduction in asking prices. They are increasing their effective asking prices and then the owner's, whilst accruing upkeep costs, wonder why their boats are not selling.

I was involved in brokerage for a while, generally selling mid range boats sub £100k of all ages. I just looked at some data I produced at the time which showed that the boats sat on brokerage for an average of 207 days and finally sold for 81% of their initial asking price. This data was adjusted to exclude the extremes, was generally a pretty accurate and I knew what the selling price would have to be vs time on brokerage.

None of this is PhD stuff. All used car businesses know this.
 
I think the point I was trying to make is how does the interface between the Auction house and the Vendor work?

As evidenced by this thread, many boat owners 'over value' their boats and Brokers go along with this. All ends in tears.

So, if I want to auction my Morris Minor and say to the Auction House 'Well, I think it is worth £25k' are they going to put it in at that price?

It would appear not. The Auction House establishes the guide price and the Vendor has to go with that - or take his motor elsewhere.
 
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