Second hand market must be DIRE

' Lots of boats out there ' - well if you just want any old bathtub fine, otherwise if you have taste & knowledge put your hand in your pocket !

Granted all boats, cars and watches have decreased in value due to the recession but there is a limit; I don't see many good Contessa 32's or E-Types going cheap.
 
Seajet said:
' Lots of boats out there ' - well if you just want any old bathtub fine, otherwise if you have taste & knowledge put your hand in your pocket !

Granted all boats, cars and watches have decreased in value due to the recession but there is a limit; I don't see many good Contessa 32's or E-Types going cheap.
Click to expand...

Seajet, Actually, I agree with you when you say that there are many boats out there which are very tatty.
Another problem is that boats sit around unsold for years (because they are originally listed at unrealistic prices). After deteriorating, (unloved), around for a couple of years, the decks are dirty, the running rigging is shot and quite often, the sails have been left on the spars. I went to see one boat (which the broker hadn't visited for over a year) and there was mould on the headlining so thick, it looked like green decor.

You mention the Contessa 32. An interesting example. I looked at these, on line, last year but decided against them because I needed more accommodation. The boats that I looked at are all still for sale. Some of them look pretty decent. These Contessas are typical of the current market, boats in similar condition range from £22K to £32K. The point is that they are not selling at the asking prices. Of course, the brokers say that the 'realistic' selling prices are 20% below the asking prices (?which they set?). So, you should be able to pick up a decent Contessa 32 for around £17.5K. This way that the brokers operate is crazy since, I suspect that if these boats were listed at 'offers over £17.5K', they would sell at that price.

All I can say is that, in my experience, owners are open to offers well below the asking prices once their boats have remained unsold for a year or two. So, the bargains are there, if you are patient and are willing to involve yourself in some rather unsavoury haggling.
 
To be fair, brokers simply use the method they know works, the second you set a sale price in a declining market people will offer below it, regardless of 'fair value', so they know the prices are probably too high, but also know if they make them lower it drives the price down further. In the same way, putting a fair price and asking for offers over works if the market is hot, but when its not, probably isn't the right approach.
 
vjmehra said:
To be fair, brokers simply use the method they know works, the second you set a sale price in a declining market people will offer below it, regardless of 'fair value', so they know the prices are probably too high, but also know if they make them lower it drives the price down further. In the same way, putting a fair price and asking for offers over works if the market is hot, but when its not, probably isn't the right approach.
Click to expand...

The point is that it doesn't seem to work (in the current market). These boats are sitting unsold for years.

All very well for houses where people are living in the house they are selling. Most of the yachts that I have seen have been un-sailed since they have been put on the market
And the seller will be paying a few £K a year mooring fees and, possibly, additional maintenance. Also, unlike a house, a yacht depreciates with time - rapidly, if it is left uncared for.

So, if I was selling my boat now, I would do what I did eventually, last year. I reduced the price by 28% from the unrealistic price the broker had told me we would get. The boat sold (privately) in a week. If I had done that 18 months previously, I would have saved a lot on marina fees.

If a boat is being sold/bought within the UK, I don't really see the value of using a broker in this age of the Internet.




So, if I was selling
 
Ravi said:
Seajet, Actually, I agree with you when you say that there are many boats out there which are very tatty.
Another problem is that boats sit around unsold for years (because they are originally listed at unrealistic prices). After deteriorating, (unloved), around for a couple of years, the decks are dirty, the running rigging is shot and quite often, the sails have been left on the spars. I went to see one boat (which the broker hadn't visited for over a year) and there was mould on the headlining so thick, it looked like green decor.

You mention the Contessa 32. An interesting example. I looked at these, on line, last year but decided against them because I needed more accommodation. The boats that I looked at are all still for sale. Some of them look pretty decent. These Contessas are typical of the current market, boats in similar condition range from £22K to £32K. The point is that they are not selling at the asking prices. Of course, the brokers say that the 'realistic' selling prices are 20% below the asking prices (?which they set?). So, you should be able to pick up a decent Contessa 32 for around £17.5K. This way that the brokers operate is crazy since, I suspect that if these boats were listed at 'offers over £17.5K', they would sell at that price.

All I can say is that, in my experience, owners are open to offers well below the asking prices once their boats have remained unsold for a year or two. So, the bargains are there, if you are patient and are willing to involve yourself in some rather unsavoury haggling.
Click to expand...

Realistic prices, whilst perhaps being more like the actual value, if 'low', will present to the buyer a boat that could be perceived as 'tatty' or 'problematic'. Pricing it higher, allows the buyer to 'knock down' the seller, psychologically beneficial & allowing him to think he's a great negotiator by getting such a bargain. Almost all sellers, expect to be knocked down, so price accordingly.
 
alant said:
Realistic prices, whilst perhaps being more like the actual value, if 'low', will present to the buyer a boat that could be perceived as 'tatty' or 'problematic'. Pricing it higher, allows the buyer to 'knock down' the seller, psychologically beneficial & allowing him to think he's a great negotiator by getting such a bargain. Almost all sellers, expect to be knocked down, so price accordingly.
Click to expand...

There's always the possibility of writing an honest ad for your boat. Very few second hand boats are perfect, so why not list the things that are good and the things that are bad.

People often travel a long way to look at a boat and there's nothing worse than having your time wasted. When I was shopping for a second hand boat last year, the majority of ads I came across did not have enough pictures and did not present an accurate picture of the condition of the boat. One notable exception was Boatshed. They usually have fifty or so pictures of every inch of the boat so you can make up your own mind.

I agree with pricing slightly higher than you would be happy taking. The buyer needs to feel good about their purchase. If the boat's not perfect then a little haggling makes them feel like they've got a bit of their budget left over to fix whatever is bothering them.
 
alant said:
Realistic prices, whilst perhaps being more like the actual value, if 'low', will present to the buyer a boat that could be perceived as 'tatty' or 'problematic'. Pricing it higher, allows the buyer to 'knock down' the seller, psychologically beneficial & allowing him to think he's a great negotiator by getting such a bargain. Almost all sellers, expect to be knocked down, so price accordingly.
Click to expand...

Agree, you do need to price in something to give the buyer what they expect, but f brokers are expecting the boat to go for 20% less than asking then why not reducing asking by say 10%. It at least brings the boat closer to what potential buyers might think she is worth.

Personally though, I would be wary of a neglected boat and suspect that many are the same. Something that has sat outside over winter with heating and dehumidifier but is a little grubby is one thing and no issue. Another boat that has been allowed to rot for a while is another. The first shows an owner doing basic maintenance. The second shows an owner than ignores the basics, and if they ignore the basics, how do you that anything has been maintained.
 
funny i have a moody 34 for sale i would like to up size to a 35 /or 37 and all so have a v12 etype i have had for 20y and both have dropped like mad re car only the very top cars are selling for good money,the rest are taking a big hit.It must be the same for boats talking to broker about my boat he said that over the last 2y boats had droped by 25% to30% and still droping by 6% each year thats big hit for us plus he wanted 9.5% to sell it he said if it was his he would keep it. so i think i will do just that thanks david
 
Last edited:
mrming said:
T. If the boat's not perfect then a little haggling makes them feel like they've got a bit of their budget left over to fix whatever is bothering them.
Click to expand...

Not everyone is comfortable haggling so I think that listing the boat at an inflated price will lose a lot of buyers.

The fact remains that these boats remain unsold for years.

Here are the maths. You are selling a 32 foot Contessa 32. You list it with a broker for £22K. Two years later,it is unsold. You have paid £6K in marina fees. You have either spent a few £K on maintenance, lifting, antifouling, etc. and time and effort cleaning or you have a depreciated and unattractive boat. You then sell it for £17K (either on eBay or after repeatedly reducing the price). You pay the broker their commission. Take off your expenses and you are lucky to walk away with £10K!

Alternatively, list the boat for offers over £17K on day 1, sell it and put £17K the money in the bank to gather interest for two years! (Stipulate ONLY OFFERS OVER £17K WILL BE CONSIDERED in the initial advert.)

The fact that all the other Contessa 32s in similar condition are listed at £22K and that yours is £17K will mean that the buyer will have a very good feeling about his purchase. Some people may be suspicious of the lower price but most people buying a yacht are reasonably intelligent.

The unrealistic prices being posted by brokers don't cost them anything but it does cost the seller.

Another thing that I would do if I was selling a boat now is to spend a few £ on a survey and make it available to anyone interested.
 
Stipulate ONLY OFFERS OVER £17K WILL BE CONSIDERED in the initial advert.

Stating that will put off more buyers than a slightly higher price they can haggle down.

If the seller makes it obvious they are not willing to be flexible they are far more likely to lose interest as people won't waste their time.
 
alant said:
Realistic prices, whilst perhaps being more like the actual value, if 'low', will present to the buyer a boat that could be perceived as 'tatty' or 'problematic'. Pricing it higher, allows the buyer to 'knock down' the seller, psychologically beneficial & allowing him to think he's a great negotiator by getting such a bargain. Almost all sellers, expect to be knocked down, so price accordingly.
Click to expand...

I sold a fair pile of boating and classic car bits on eBay a couple of years ago. I soon found that very low priced stuff doesn't sell. I really just wanted rid of stuff to a good home, so I started by putting it on with starting prices of 50p. Rarely any interest. Relist the same thing with a starting price of £20 and it would sell. In some cases it would sell very well; I sold a set of repair sections for a Triumph Herald bonnet for about 50% more than the manufacturer charges (note present tense).

If someone wants a Contessa 32, sees one listed at £25k and buys it for £17.5k he'll be thinking "Oooh, what a bargain, aren't I clever?" but if he sees one for £17.5k to start with he'll think "Blimey, what's wrong with that?" and steer clear.
 
Ravi said:
Not everyone is comfortable haggling so I think that listing the boat at an inflated price will lose a lot of buyers.

The fact remains that these boats remain unsold for years.

Here are the maths. You are selling a 32 foot Contessa 32. You list it with a broker for £22K. Two years later,it is unsold. You have paid £6K in marina fees. You have either spent a few £K on maintenance, lifting, antifouling, etc. and time and effort cleaning or you have a depreciated and unattractive boat.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, you have also had a boat to sail for just as much as it would have cost you anyway. If I was thinking of getting a different boat, but not feeling urgent about it, I might think "I'll go on using the boat as usual, but list her for sale as well. If someone comes along with a reasonable offer, all well and good but if not it's no skin off my nose."
 
Lakesailor said:
So the price is £17K then. No room for manoeuvre.
Click to expand...

I suppose you could do it like houses in Scotland. Up here there are basically two ways to sell your house. "Fixed price" means that any offer will be considered at once and, if it's above the privce given, accepted. "Offers over" gives a starting price above which offers will be considered. If you like the house you note interest through your solicitor. At some point, normally after one offer above the bar has been received, the seller's solicitors fix a closing date and the highest offer received by then wins. Of course this does rather depend on the market being buoyant enough to generate multiple offers, which may not apply to an old Contessa 32 mouldering away in a marina somewhere.

The ratio of "Offers over" to "Fixed price" advertisements is a good measure of the housing market. In the boom years 90%+ of house were advertised as "offers over" and in Edinburgh you typically had to bid 40 - 50% above the bar to win. Now 80%+ are "Fixed price" and winning offers are typically 20% below that - rather like yacht sales in both regards.
 
The thing is, with property that can work, with boats the market is only really one way (or now at least), therefore by taking an 'offers over' approach, you merely put off potential buyers who may be keen, but at lower levels...
 
JumbleDuck said:
If someone wants a Contessa 32, sees one listed at £25k and buys it for £17.5k he'll be thinking "Oooh, what a bargain, aren't I clever?" but if he sees one for £17.5k to start with he'll think "Blimey, what's wrong with that?" and steer clear.
Click to expand...

I guess, I must just have a different psychology because, if I could bring myself to haggle to what I considered a realistic price, I would just feel that the guy had been trying to rip me off.
I see you point, though, because people snap up things in supermarkets when they are discounted - even when the supermarkets have artificially inflated the prices in the preceding weeks to make the discount possible.

Leaving aside the psychology, it doesn't change the fact that these boats are sitting unsold and costing the sellers £££s in marina fees. As I say, I have been watching the market and the boats that are listed at realistic prices DO sell. It is the boats with inflated prices that hang around.

This is definitely what I have seen based on spending far too much time trawling Europe for the 'right boat' over the last few years. OK - here is some hard evidence.

If you look at this page, you will see that the boats with the two lowest prices are 'under offer'. The seven boats with the higher prices are unsold.
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...earchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsUK&Ntt=hanse+301

This is typical of what I see so maybe I am not the only one who thinks like this.








JumbleDuck said:
I sold a fair pile of boating and classic car bits on eBay a couple of years ago. I soon found that very low priced stuff doesn't sell. I really just wanted rid of stuff to a good home, so I started by putting it on with starting prices of 50p. Rarely any interest. Relist the same thing with a starting price of £20 and it would sell. In some cases it would sell very well; I sold a set of repair sections for a Triumph Herald bonnet for about 50% more than the manufacturer charges (note present tense).

If someone wants a Contessa 32, sees one listed at £25k and buys it for £17.5k he'll be thinking "Oooh, what a bargain, aren't I clever?" but if he sees one for £17.5k to start with he'll think "Blimey, what's wrong with that?" and steer clear.
Click to expand...
 
Ravi said:
...

Leaving aside the psychology, it doesn't change the fact that these boats are sitting unsold and costing the sellers £££s in marina fees. As I say, I have been watching the market and the boats that are listed at realistic prices DO sell. It is the boats with inflated prices that hang around.

This is definitely what I have seen based on spending far too much time trawling Europe for the 'right boat' over the last few years. OK - here is some hard evidence.

If you look at this page, you will see that the boats with the two lowest prices are 'under offer'. The seven boats with the higher prices are unsold.
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...earchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsUK&Ntt=hanse+301

This is typical of what I see so maybe I am not the only one who thinks like this.
Click to expand...

I guess you probably have several different types of seller. There are those who, for one reason or another, are simply giving up boat ownership - they may fly a kite with an initial high price but are likely to come down quite quickly. There are those who are changing boats, have found their new boat, possibly bought it, and need to sell their current boat fairly quickly - they will also come down quite quickly. What you also see a lot is someone who has decided they want to change, possibly upgrade, but is continuing to sail their current boat while they try to sell it and seek the replacement - they are likely to be in less of a rush and will try for a high price - at least until they find the perfect replacement - then they transfer to being one of the second type described above.
 
Some boats may well be for sale but the owner's don't give a hoot if they sell or not; for many varied reasons. For those that are properly for sale, this little chart may clarify the psychology of the cycle of a boat sale. The chart is drawn with a passing nod to a similar chart called the life cycle of a (financial) bubble. Please don't take it too seriously !

BoatSellingCycle_zps31526cec.jpg
 
Looking at the Contessa 32s currently for sale on Apollo Duck, only one ad contains what I would consider to be enough photos to warrant going to see the boat, and that requires clicking through to a broker's site and registering your email address to view.

If you are in the market for a Co32, all of the current sellers are making your life harder than they need to. Many don't include essential information about the condition of the engine, standing rigging and sails. I think some brokers assume second hand boats are bought by mugs. My guess is most people in the market for a Contessa will know exactly what they're looking at.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top