Second hand market must be DIRE

[thewoodenboatman]

... any asset is only worth what buyers are willing to pay after all!

If that is right then we should all stop trying to sell and just give our assets away, eh?

Personally, I would hold that any asset is worth what you eventually agree to sell it for. At that point, your buyer has, perhaps reluctantly, realised he will need to pay more than he hoped and you have realised you ain't gunna sell it unless you drop to a price somewhat less than you hoped for. It's a process of negotiation. A bit old-fashioned I know but it is the essence of all successful marketing.

Obviously, it is necessary to take into account the market in which you bought and the one in which you are trying to sell. Perhaps the vast majority of us bought our stuff in a buoyany market where prices were high. Things have changed dramatically and there are few buyers for far too many items. We have a choice, of course, and that is to sit on our assets until the pendulum swings the other way. If, for any reason, a sale must be made, then you are at the mercy of the few buyers out there.

That said, I do think there are many little money-grubbers out there trying to take advantage of the current situation to make a killing. The best we can do in dealing with them is to just say NO! - and hang on for a buyer prepared to pay a fair price.

 

[Eyore]

Its a buyers market and if the boat you or anyone else has on the market isn't selling, you have to ask yourself why. More than likely its overpriced and many buyers wont even get as far as negotiating the price, they will simply go elsewhere as there is so much choice currently. Of course buyers will take advantage of the current situation, they would be fools not to.
The only sellers saying NO are not interested in selling.

 

[Blueboatman]

Never be in a hurry to buy or sell. But equally I am a firm believer that those who go in hard to 'make that deal' may get it but are no happier in themselves after. Pathetic I call it, at the expense to others as well with the shenanigans that are commercially acceptable these days. Most brokers have the stories to support this

 

[jwilson]

Its a buyers market and if the boat you or anyone else has on the market isn't selling, you have to ask yourself why. More than likely its overpriced and many buyers wont even get as far as negotiating the price, they will simply go elsewhere as there is so much choice currently. Of course buyers will take advantage of the current situation, they would be fools not to.
The only sellers saying NO are not interested in selling.

There are "buyers" out there who make very, very low offers. We had someone offer £12,000 for this boat, which shortly afterwards sold to someone else for very close to the asking price after a good survey - http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/d92413/d92413.htm - the idea of this boat for £12,000 is just silly. We find that the "ultra-low-offerers" often scatter-gun these low offers around, in the hope of finding a truly desperate seller.

There are of course also overpriced boats around, often when the seller is reluctant, for a variety of reasons.

 

[vjmehra]

If that is right then we should all stop trying to sell and just give our assets away, eh?

Personally, I would hold that any asset is worth what you eventually agree to sell it for. At that point, your buyer has, perhaps reluctantly, realised he will need to pay more than he hoped and you have realised you ain't gunna sell it unless you drop to a price somewhat less than you hoped for. It's a process of negotiation. A bit old-fashioned I know but it is the essence of all successful marketing.

In a market with rising asset prices, such as houses, that can be the case, with boats that is almost never the case and definitely isn't right now. I'm not in anyway suggesting any one individual should accept lower for their particular boat, merely that the buyer is the one with the cash that the seller needs and a boat is not an essential item, so in this market, the buyer holds the majority of the power, if the seller needs to sell, the buyer controls the price (within reason).

That said, I do think there are many little money-grubbers out there trying to take advantage of the current situation to make a killing. The best we can do in dealing with them is to just say NO! - and hang on for a buyer prepared to pay a fair price.

Would you offer to pay more than you needed to on anything? Why should buyers not take advantage of a falling market?

 

[Eyore]

There are "buyers" out there who make very, very low offers. We had someone offer £12,000 for this boat, which shortly afterwards sold to someone else for very close to the asking price after a good survey - http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/d92413/d92413.htm - the idea of this boat for £12,000 is just silly. We find that the "ultra-low-offerers" often scatter-gun these low offers around, in the hope of finding a truly desperate seller.

There are of course also overpriced boats around, often when the seller is reluctant, for a variety of reasons.

Absolutely agree ,anyone taking the wee wee by offering £12k for that shouldn't even be entertained.

 

[Grumpybear]

Best time, I would think - almost any boat that floats looks great on a warm, sunny July afternoon! If it ticks your boxes on a wet January Sunday afternoon, it's probably a keeper!

It was, and that was almost twelve years ago. The only box it didn't tick was the price, which was way out of our budget, but we paid it anyway thanks to another forumite whose interest unknowingly gave the vendor the cojones to hold out for the asking price until we had fallen in love with the boat.....

 

[JumbleDuck]

In a market with rising asset prices, such as houses, that can be the case, with boats that is almost never the case and definitely isn't right now. I'm not in anyway suggesting any one individual should accept lower for their particular boat, merely that the buyer is the one with the cash that the seller needs and a boat is not an essential item, so in this market, the buyer holds the majority of the power, if the seller needs to sell, the buyer controls the price (within reason).

That does depend on there being a sufficient supply of boats acceptable to the buyer. If s/he would be content with a Centaur or with something pretty generic then yes, there are other opportunities around. If you really want something in rather shorter supply, it may not be much of a buyers' market after all.

Would you offer to pay more than you needed to on anything?

Yup. Human kindness is worth more to me than gouging every last penny. I also buy fair trade bananas.

 

[Eyore]

I buy ordinary common or garden , slightly bent , yellow Tesco bananas which I have been buying for all my life. Seeing as everybody in the supply chain ensures continuity of supply I can only conclude they are happy with the arrangement, same as my conscience.

 

[vjmehra]

That does depend on there being a sufficient supply of boats acceptable to the buyer. If s/he would be content with a Centaur or with something pretty generic then yes, there are other opportunities around. If you really want something in rather shorter supply, it may not be much of a buyers' market after all.

Absolutely...to an extent, but you are kidding yourself if you genuinely believe its not a buyers market. You may not need to sell, but many do and that is enough to swing the power balance to the majority of buyers as boats are not essential, they are luxury items. But yes of course, if you have a very unique boat that a large number of people are keen to buy, then of course you can get a better price for it, but realistically that is a very rare scenario!

Yup. Human kindness is worth more to me than gouging every last penny. I also buy fair trade bananas.

Whilst kindness is an admirable trait, I don't see how overpaying for a boat is the same as ensuring impoverished South American farmers receive a reasonable income for their livelihood. One is selling something they chose to buy, so they can do something else with that disposable income, the other is selling something purely to survive.

Also, to look at it another way, if fair trade banana's could be bought for £1, would you pay £2 for them?

 

[thewoodenboatman]

Would you offer to pay more than you needed to on anything? Why should buyers not take advantage of a falling market?

Well yes, I have done at times and on the basis that I am always willing to pay a fair price. I find the concept of 'taking advantage' quite distasteful. In my view, it is one of the things about Britain today that drives our nation towards ignominy.

I think my position is likely to be shared by a minority - but I really don't care at all about that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Absolutely...to an extent, but you are kidding yourself if you genuinely believe its not a buyers market. You may not need to sell, but many do and that is enough to swing the power balance to the majority of buyers as boats are not essential, they are luxury items. But yes of course, if you have a very unique boat that a large number of people are keen to buy, then of course you can get a better price for it, but realistically that is a very rare scenario!

It may not be quite that simple. Why, for example, are people willing to pay for new boats? Why do boats have any value at all? Rolex watches are luxury items, but still fetch healthy prices second hand.

Whilst kindness is an admirable trait, I don't see how overpaying for a boat is the same as ensuring impoverished South American farmers receive a reasonable income for their livelihood. One is selling something they chose to buy, so they can do something else with that disposable income, the other is selling something purely to survive.

And if someone is selling their boat because they lost their job and need the money to pay the mortgage. Even if the buyer can screw them down to a pittance, is it morally right to do so?

Also, to look at it another way, if fair trade banana's could be bought for £1, would you pay £2 for them?

I just did, not two hours ago. Bought 'em in the Co-Op rather than going to Lidl.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well yes, I have done at times and on the basis that I am always willing to pay a fair price. I find the concept of 'taking advantage' quite distasteful. In my view, it is one of the things about Britain today that drives our nation towards ignominy.

I think my position is likely to be shared by a minority - but I really don't care at all about that.

It's shared by me. I don't care to exploit people, even when I can.

 

[thewoodenboatman]

It's shared by me. I don't care to exploit people, even when I can.

Good on you, JumbleDuck. I'm with you all the way. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there right now - but we don't all choose to be dogs. I prefer to stick with being a decent human being, like you methinks.

 

[vjmehra]

Well yes, I have done at times and on the basis that I am always willing to pay a fair price. I find the concept of 'taking advantage' quite distasteful. In my view, it is one of the things about Britain today that drives our nation towards ignominy.

I think my position is likely to be shared by a minority - but I really don't care at all about that.

Why should it be the seller's price that's fair?

Why is the buyer's price not the fair price?

Surely if a sale is agreed that is the 'fair' price as both parties have agreed to trade there, a buyer will pay no more than they have to and a seller will not take less then they think they can get.

 

[vjmehra]

It may not be quite that simple. Why, for example, are people willing to pay for new boats? Why do boats have any value at all? Rolex watches are luxury items, but still fetch healthy prices second hand.

People like nice things, but everything you mention is a depreciating asset, bar the odd collectors item, that can go the other way of course.

And if someone is selling their boat because they lost their job and need the money to pay the mortgage. Even if the buyer can screw them down to a pittance, is it morally right to do so?

A fair point, but a) You may not know the seller's story b) The sob story may or may not be true c) If you are the highest bidder, why should you pay more, if it wasn't for you they would be getting even less, so you are actually doing them a favour already by paying a premium over the next highest bidder.

I just did, not two hours ago. Bought 'em in the Co-Op rather than going to Lidl.

Why? Fair enough if you believe the profit is going to the farmers, but how can you be sure the product is similar quality and that the profit isn't going into the pockets of the Co-op (lets be fair they need all the help they can get at the mo)!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Surely if a sale is agreed that is the 'fair' price as both parties have agreed to trade there, a buyer will pay no more than they have to and a seller will not take less then they think they can get.

I agree. There is no "buyer's price" and "seller's price", just "the agreed price".

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why? Fair enough if you believe the profit is going to the farmers, but how can you be sure the product is similar quality and that the profit isn't going into the pockets of the Co-op (lets be fair they need all the help they can get at the mo)!

Life is too short to worry about the odd quid here and there. Also I was in the Co-Op and Lidl is 23 miles away. But I'll be there tomorrow.

 

[vjmehra]

Life is too short to worry about the odd quid here and there. Also I was in the Co-Op and Lidl is 23 miles away. But I'll be there tomorrow.

Oh haha, so you actually saved money by not going to Lidl then ;-)

I thought you meant you were taking a moral stance on the bananas!!!

 

[windlipper]

It has been my belief that older used boats have been over priced for many years. Its obvious, the older they become the more likely things will go wrong and the expensive general maintenance costs inevitably increase with the age of the vessel. I bought my 2 year old boat 5 years ago at a cost of just under £50000. The same model boat is now being advertised with brokers at between £40000 and £45000. Supposing I was to get the lower amount for mine I would have suffered £10000 depreciation or £2000 per year. I find that wonderful and far more than can be justified. I've lost double that amount with the 2 moderate family cars I have owned in the same period! Its upkeep has cost far more than the cars of course but that's the price of boat ownership.
Perhaps the time has come for all used boats to be far cheaper and we have to accept the depreciation, it might actually do the industry good, what do they say about cars? - For every new one sold another three or four go through the second hand market.